Comments: 31 Score: [-] 364 [+].
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Posted: 4 months ago by JoshSF49:
I'm sorry, but I'm with Bush and McCain on this issue, and when it comes to war issues I'm hardly ever with them.
But these people volunteered to join the military. They get paid for being in the military. They get a very nice retirement plan for being in the military.
So my question is, why should the government pay for soldiers to go to school? In the past, we needed soldiers and the reason for the G.I. Bill was to encourage people to sign up. We're on no shortage of military any longer.
Why should the government pay for the schooling of military personnel, and not for other government employees, like school janitors?
The risk involved in the military is part of the job, there is no reason we should be shelling out extra money to those who volunteered to join the military.
Score: [-] -33 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by shep182:
« JoshSF49:I'm sorry, but I'm with Bush and McCain on this issue, and when it comes to war issues I'm hardly ever with them.
But these people volunteered to join the military. They get paid for being in the military. They get a very nice retirement plan for being in the military. Most of the current standing army had no other options... if you come from a small town in the rust belt, you can turn to drugs, work fast food or join the military... this is the unseen effect of the Bush administration's economic policies...
hundreds of thousands of graduating high-schoolers with no choice ... they can either stay stuck in their one-horse towns or they can join the military and get their college paid for... its their only option...
So my question is, why should the government pay for soldiers to go to school? In the past, we needed soldiers and the reason for the G.I. Bill was to encourage people to sign up. We're on no shortage of military any longer.
I dont know where you get your figures, but the VAST majority of our armed forces... including the national guard and reserves are tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan... so much so that there is no assistance available in case of a national distaster (see Katrina) and the people that are there have served in some cases tripple or quadruple their alotted times in the military... they are not allowed to leave after their original tours are up... they are called back to duty without renegotiation of their pay or benifits... its called "stop loss"... you should check that one out...
Why should the government pay for the schooling of military personnel, and not for other government employees, like school janitors?
The risk involved in the military is part of the job, there is no reason we should be shelling out extra money to those who volunteered to join the military.
Have you been reading on post-war care for these veterans? Its appalling... suicides are up... soldiers with brain damage do not receive the care they need because the VA is underfunded and understaffed. Not to mention the potential loss of life... now THERE is a retirement benifit for you...
If you ever think that the vets all get out of the military and sit on their butts and get paid for it... go volunteer at your local VA for one week... see how our heroes are treated after the administration is done with them.
We were lied to to start the war, and the soldiers have been lied to about their benifits... injured soldiers have their signing bonuses taken away because they didn't stay long enuf... just long enuf to catch an IED or a sniper bullet.... but the bean counters say they dont deserve their compensation because they weren't active long enuf before they were injured...
Personally... i say that we dont do ENOUGH for our soldiers... Give them the GI bill, give them signing bonuses, give them decent... no... IMMACULATE... health care benifits once they are out... hell... give them a tax free year... over 4000 combat deaths in Iraq and you honestly want to haggle over wheter or not they deserve a free education? Go enlist... and THEN come back and see if you feel the same way...
Score: [-] 114 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by ImNotBlue:
« shep182 : Most of the current standing army had no other options... if you come from a small town in the rust belt, you can turn to drugs, work fast food or join the military... this is the unseen effect of the Bush administration's economic policies...
hundreds of thousands of graduating high-schoolers with no choice ... they can either stay stuck in their one-horse towns or they can join the military and get their college paid for... its their only option... Evidence? Where is your backup for this statement? Many studies I have seen say that we have an exception army comprised of many "middle class," "educated" people... and it is an unfortunate assumption, made by anti-war people attempting to fool the public.
I dont know where you get your figures, but the VAST majority of our armed forces... including the national guard and reserves are tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan... so much so that there is no assistance available in case of a national distaster (see Katrina) and the people that are there have served in some cases tripple or quadruple their alotted times in the military... they are not allowed to leave after their original tours are up... they are called back to duty without renegotiation of their pay or benifits... its called "stop loss"... you should check that one out...
False! There were plenty of people to help out during Katrina, and the war had little if no impact on the botched recovery. There are many stories of army rescue boats waiting for the "Go Ahead" signal, and things to calm down so they could sail close enough to New Orleans. Plus, because of the delayed reaction from New Orleans and Louisiana’s leadership, the federal government couldn't begin to mobilize their local forces in time.
Is there any evidence that people were missing... or is that just a false conclusion.
Have you been reading on post-war care for these veterans? Its appalling... suicides are up... soldiers with brain damage do not receive the care they need because the VA is underfunded and understaffed. Not to mention the potential loss of life... now THERE is a retirement benifit for you...
And how would the GI Bill help or fix that?
If you ever think that the vets all get out of the military and sit on their butts and get paid for it... go volunteer at your local VA for one week... see how our heroes are treated after the administration is done with them.
Who said that? You're getting all upset over something nobody said.
We were lied to to start the war, and the soldiers have been lied to about their benifits... injured soldiers have their signing bonuses taken away because they didn't stay long enuf... just long enuf to catch an IED or a sniper bullet.... but the bean counters say they dont deserve their compensation because they weren't active long enuf before they were injured...
Personally... i say that we dont do ENOUGH for our soldiers... Give them the GI bill, give them signing bonuses, give them decent... no... IMMACULATE... health care benifits once they are out... hell... give them a tax free year... over 4000 combat deaths in Iraq and you honestly want to haggle over wheter or not they deserve a free education? Go enlist... and THEN come back and see if you feel the same way...
I understand (kinda) and appreciate (kinda) your frustration about this. Returning soldiers should get more... but how much more is really needed?
____________
This is an editorial... so naturally it doesn't include all the information, or the opposite view point.
Here is what John McCain had to say about Webb's proposed GI Bill:
“There are fundamental differences,” McCain told Politico. “He creates a new bureaucracy and new rules. His bill offers the same benefits whether you stay three years or longer. We want to have a sliding scale to increase retention. I haven’t been in Washington, but my staff there said that his has not been eager to negotiate.”
Ahh... things sound a little different now don't they.
I agree that soldiers should get the best we can give them... and better than they currently get. But the knee-jerk reaction that says "More must be better," is just wrong. Are the new benefits fair for all? Are they affordable? Is it practical? These are all questions that should be answered... and no attack editorial will do that.
Don't base your opinion about this issue on this one "article." I sure won't.
Score: [-] 35 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by 2manyusernames:
compromise and give those who have served in a war theater full college benefits, books and all.
Those who didn't can either get nothing or perhaps partial benefits, some sort of sliding scale depending on the time in the military.
Nor is it even remotely true that people from small town in the rust belt can turn to drugs, work fast food or join the military... that is pure bulls**t.
And I'm sorry we were not "lied to". Perhaps we were. You have absolutely no proof of any sort either way. We don't even know for sure if there ever were WMD. One thing is absolutely sure, Saddam wanted the world to think he did.
Most military get fantastic care. Have there been a few horror stories? Yes, there always has been. Are those few horror stories too many? Yes, they are. One is too many. That isn't an indication on the entire military medical care however.
Score: [-] 108 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by Maven:
As for 'military pay'...Ha!
Did you know that lots of military families qualify for food stamps? That the military lifestyle--usually spending 4-5 years at one base and then moving--makes it difficult for spouses to find good paying jobs?
Yep, it's a volunteer military. But there's an awful lot about being military that isn't covered with a recruiter.
As for education...there are many, many military careers that don't really have a civilian counterpart. So these people devote 20 years to a job that does absolutely nothing for them finding a job once they retire, and while you might consider the retirement plan nice, it's not enough to support a family. So, they retire, and suddenly discover they have to start at the bottom of the ladder, or figure out how to pay for school as well as their family, at the age of 38-40.
Shut up and be grateful that it IS voluntary, and that it gives you the right to sit around and b***h about it without ever being expected to raise your own hand in defense.
Score: [-] 161 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by dollyllama:
« JoshSF49 : I'm sorry, but I'm with Bush and McCain on this issue, and when it comes to war issues I'm hardly ever with them.
But these people volunteered to join the military. They get paid for being in the military. They get a very nice retirement plan for being in the military. You don't get a retirement plan unless you serve 30 years. Where did you get your information? You also know that the pay rate is less than minimum wage, right? Even combat pay doesn't bring it to minimum wage. You get to live in barracks that are crumbling and in some (many from my experience) are disgusting.
So my question is, why should the government pay for soldiers to go to school? In the past, we needed soldiers and the reason for the G.I. Bill was to encourage people to sign up. We're on no shortage of military any longer.
WHAT? Why do you think there are multiple tours of duty? There's a huge shortage of volunteers, again, where are you getting your information?
Why should the government pay for the schooling of military personnel, and not for other government employees, like school janitors?
The government offers tuition assistance to most of it's employees. It does have to be job related and they do have to pass the classes. Guess there aren't that many janitorial graduate programs though.
The risk involved in the military is part of the job, there is no reason we should be shelling out extra money to those who volunteered to join the military.
You aren't a vet, are you?
Score: [-] 98 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by dollyllama:
« 2manyusernames : compromise and give those who have served in a war theater full college benefits, books and all.
Those who didn't can either get nothing or perhaps partial benefits, some sort of sliding scale depending on the time in the military.
Nor is it even remotely true that people from small town in the rust belt can turn to drugs, work fast food or join the military... that is pure bulls**t.
And I'm sorry we were not "lied to". Perhaps we were. You have absolutely no proof of any sort either way. We don't even know for sure if there ever were WMD. One thing is absolutely sure, Saddam wanted the world to think he did.
Most military get fantastic care. Have there been a few horror stories? Yes, there always has been. Are those few horror stories too many? Yes, they are. One is too many. That isn't an indication on the entire military medical care however. So in a war you think the only military that matters are the ones who are on the front but if not for all the other military personnel supplying them, training them, keeping them safe via radar and maintaining equipment and providing medical care there wouldn't be anyone on the front. I completely disagree with your stance.
Score: [-] 110 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by JoshSF49:
« dollyllama : You don't get a retirement plan unless you serve 30 years. Where did you get your information? You also know that the pay rate is less than minimum wage, right? Even combat pay doesn't bring it to minimum wage. You get to live in barracks that are crumbling and in some (many from my experience) are disgusting. So? Your point? They know what they got into. A person working at McDonald's doesn't expect to get their college paid for, why should a soldier? They both chose the job they wanted, full knowing what benefits they would be without.WHAT? Why do you think there are multiple tours of duty? There's a huge shortage of volunteers, again, where are you getting your information?
We have plenty of soldiers. If some need arises, we can ship our people back home immediately. We have no shortage of soldiers, we've just spread ourselves too thin.The government offers tuition assistance to most of it's employees. It does have to be job related and they do have to pass the classes. Guess there aren't that many janitorial graduate programs though.
Well I don't think those should be given.My question again, is, why should these government employees be given free schooling just for being a government employee?You aren't a vet, are you?
No, only 20 ma'am
Score: [-] -13 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by 2manyusernames:
« dollyllama : So in a war you think the only military that matters are the ones who are on the front but if not for all the other military personnel supplying them, training them, keeping them safe via radar and maintaining equipment and providing medical care there wouldn't be anyone on the front. I completely disagree with your stance. No, actually I think they ALL should get full benefits. I was merely proposing a compromise. One I have a distaste for, but better to get part of what you want then nothing at all.
Also, once you got part, it is far easier to get the extra for the reasons you list and more.
Nor did I say only those on the front. I said any in the theatre. Dos that mean front? Maybe I used wrong word. I meant those in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, etc. Those who serve their duty at places like Fort DeRussy on Waikiki Beach are part of the compromise so that some can get what theyve earned now
Score: [-] 107 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by JoshSF49:
« Maven : As for 'military pay'...Ha!
Did you know that lots of military families qualify for food stamps? That the military lifestyle--usually spending 4-5 years at one base and then moving--makes it difficult for spouses to find good paying jobs? What about those without degrees that don't work in the military? Should they get special benefits? No. There is no reason to be handing out money to people just because they don't have a degree
Shut up and be grateful that it IS voluntary, and that it gives you the right to sit around and b***h about it without ever being expected to raise your own hand in defense.
WRONG. They do not defend our freedom. Our freedom has already been won, and we need to fight to keep our freedom from within, not from without. The PATRIOT Act? That's hurting our freedom more than any of these terrorists are.
The military, at this point, does nothing more than extend our empire.
Score: [-] -41 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by browntrout:
...when you have actually served on active duty, you can understand the full extent of the sacrifice that military personnel make. They work long hard hours in the worst of conditions and people are usually trying to kill them (and they don't do this for money in most cases).
A GI Bill would be a drop in the "fiscal bucket" of Uncle Sam. I understand John McCain's point about having a sliding scale of benefits during peace time but I don't think it should apply in time of war.
When we enter a combat zone, our pay is tax free (not like we have anything to spend it on). I think, at the very least, you should qualify for a GI Bill under those same conditions.
One last thought on the subject... treat the service of these volunteers with respect. Regardless of the circumstances that led us into war, if it weren't for their sacrifice, there would certainly be a draft and people like you would be forced into compulsory service without a pot to piss in (let alone an education benefit).
Note: I don't mean that as an insult - it's just a fact.
Score: [-] 225 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by hmtksteve:
I signed up for the GI Bill when I enlisted but I never used it.
I am generaly against creating more government programs when suitable programs already exist.
Yes, Army pay sucks. Even when you count the "free room and board" it still sucks.
To all those who have served: Do you remember those papers they started sending out in that tried to show how much value you were really getting out of your service? They would turn that $12K annual pay into $36K by showing you housing and medical costs if you were a civilian.
Well, I left the service and started working in the civilian sector making more than that statement showed and had more free money after paying my bills than I had while in the service!
When you enlist or re-up is when you get to make the deals. Once you sign you don't get any "extra" bonuses.
With all that said... The GI Bill should go back to being what it was meant to be; a way to transition from military to civilian life without being a burden.
Set the GI Bill up so that after you serve your time you get so many years of free college (including room, board and books) at a state school based upon how long you served or what sort of action you saw.
Or you could allow someone to cash it in to start their own business. You would have to be careful with that one 'cause some folks would just cash out, run the bussines for a month and say they lost all the money.
Score: [-] 135 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by dollyllama:
I can't seem to quote so I'll respond to Josh thus:
Recruiters lie or deceive or omit a lot. 40% of recruits drop out in the first phase (basic). A majority because it was not what they were led to believe. That's just in the first phase. So no, you're incorrect.
Actually, yes a McDonald's employee can expect not only tuition reimbursement but a "McScholarship". I'm not making that up, though I wish I were.
A soldier is giving up the prime of their life to protect this country and whether you like this war or not (and I'm firmly on record as not liking it) they are out there risking their lives and sacrificing what most of us will take for granted (our youth, our health, our livelihood and the beginning of our careers) to protect this country. Even if that threat is only perceived in the mind of a man who garners little if any respect and has proven to be a bald face liar, we elected the man who sent those people to face the "enemy" who conned most of this country into believing there was/is a threat and I'll be damned if we should turn our back on their sacrifice. To be compared with McDonald's employees is a complete disservice, these young men and women are laying the lives on the line for US.
20 is old enough to sign up and learn a little about a subject before you put your opinion out there. We were lacking soldiers before we amped up in Afghanistan. 3 years ago troops were pulling multiple tours and Afghanistan was virtually forgotten. We have to call in reserves and National Guard, if we had enough troops neither would be necessary.
(and salute when you call me ma'am)
Score: [-] 110 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by 2manyusernames:
« JoshSF49 :
WRONG. They do not defend our freedom. Our freedom has already been won, and we need to fight to keep our freedom from within, not from without. The PATRIOT Act? That's hurting our freedom more than any of these terrorists are.
The military, at this point, does nothing more than extend our empire.
They don't protect your freedom? Your freedom had already been won? When was this? When
did every enemy, every person against the US get eradicated? The police caught a murderer here in Tallahassee. They also caught some drug dealers. I guess they too have accomplished our safety.
Terrorist want to kill everyone not following their particular interpreation of a belief system. They want to blowup, releasr poison, biological agents in schools, churches, malls, major highways. They want to do all this and far far far worse.
Patriot act allows someone to view your library record if warranted
Oh and if you are having an international phone call and certain keywords are detected by the system that has been around and praised since before Bush, than they can listen out the call then and there, verifying there is or isn't a criminal or terroristic plot being discussed instead of having to getba warrant then hope that the conversation isn't over. If a police officer heard someone discusing killing you he could immediately investigate. He would have reasonable cause. He would have to justify his actions later and may face trouble if he is found to have acted without justification - same as the patriot act requires
Score: [-] 132 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by TraumaMamma:
« ImNotBlue :
False! There were plenty of people to help out during Katrina, and the war had little if no impact on the botched recovery. There are many stories of army rescue boats waiting for the "Go Ahead" signal, and things to calm down so they could sail close enough to New Orleans. Plus, because of the delayed reaction from New Orleans and Louisiana’s leadership, the federal government couldn't begin to mobilize their local forces in time.
I beg to differ. My son just got back from Gulfport MS in January and the region is still in shambles. In fact, my boy, who is in mobile construction and can do ANYTHING, found civilian work as he was bored. All he had to do was muster twice a day after he came back from deployment.
They could USE them to rebuild the area, but they are not.
Score: [-] 48 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by joshsf49:
« dollyllama : I can't seem to quote so I'll respond to Josh thus:
Recruiters lie or deceive or omit a lot. 40% of recruits drop out in the first phase (basic). A majority because it was not what they were led to believe. That's just in the first phase. So no, you're incorrect. They can read the stuff above the dotted line. You choose to go into the military , even if you don't know every single aspect of what your job will entail.
Actually, yes a McDonald's employee can expect not only tuition reimbursement but a "McScholarship". I'm not making that up, though I wish I were.
Ok, maybe McDonald's wasn't the best example. But they're given private scholarships, not government scholarships.
A soldier is giving up the prime of their life to protect this country and whether you like this war or not (and I'm firmly on record as not liking it) they are out there risking their lives and sacrificing what most of us will take for granted (our youth, our health, our livelihood and the beginning of our careers) to protect this country. Even if that threat is only perceived in the mind of a man who garners little if any respect and has proven to be a bald face liar, we elected the man who sent those people to face the "enemy" who conned most of this country into believing their was a threat and I'll be damned if we should turn our back on their sacrifice. To be compared with McDonald's employees is a complete disservice, these young men and women are laying the lives on the line for US.
No, I have a lot of respect for soldiers, but at the same time, there is no more reason for them to be given a government scholarship than a McDonald's employee.
20 is old enough to sign up and learn a little about a subject before you put your opinion out there. We were lacking soldiers before we amped up in Afghanistan. 3 years ago troops were pulling multiple tours and Afghanistan was virtually forgotten. We have to call in reserves and National Guard, if we had enough troops neither would be necessary.
If we didn't go to those wars, and if we pulled our troops home from all over the world, we'd have plenty of soldiers.
(and salute when you call me ma'am)
*salutes*
Score: [-] -28 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by maven:
Why on earth would you even bring the Patriot Act up? Do you honestly think that has ANYTHING to do with the military?
Freedom is NOT something that's a permanent status. It can be lost, it can be taken away. The military is here to make certain that other countries and terrorist don't get to take ours away. VOTING GOOD candidates, and then monitoring their behavior while in office is the responsibility of every member of this country. The fact that we failed and re-elected an incompetent idiot is not the fault of the military, it is the fault of all registered voters.
Educational reimbursement is something that's available through many, many companies. A previous employer payed for 80% of my degree and about $30,000 dollars in certifications. Why should the military offer less? In order to remain competitive in the job market, they MUST offer educational benefits.
Score: [-] 164 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by joshsf49:
« 2manyusernames : They don't protect your freedom? Your freedom had already been won? When was this? 1776
When did every enemy, every person against the US get eradicated? The police caught a murderer here in Tallahassee. They also caught some drug dealers. I guess they too have accomplished our safety.
No, our safety is still in danger, and it always will be. Freedom has to be protected from within now, not from foreigners.
Terrorist want to kill everyone not following their particular interpreation of a belief system. They want to blowup, releasr poison, biological agents in schools, churches, malls, major highways. They want to do all this and far far far worse.
A.) How is that any different from what we have done in Iraq?
B.) They're still not putting our freedom in danger.
Patriot act allows someone to view your library record if warranted
No, it allows warrantless searches, that's why it's an attack on our civil liberties.
Oh and if you are having an international phone call and certain keywords are detected by the system that has been around and praised since before Bush, than they can listen out the call then and there, verifying there is or isn't a criminal or terroristic plot being discussed instead of having to getba warrant then hope that the conversation isn't over.
Thus it becomes a warrantless wiretap.
If a police officer heard someone discusing killing you he could immediately investigate. He would have reasonable cause. He would have to justify his actions later and may face trouble if he is found to have acted without justification - same as the patriot act requires
There is a world of difference between a warantless wiretap and overhearing someone talking about murder.
Score: [-] -80 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by joshsf49:
« maven : Why on earth would you even bring the Patriot Act up? Do you honestly think that has ANYTHING to do with the military? It doesn't. It attacks our freedoms.
Freedom is NOT something that's a permanent status. It can be lost, it can be taken away.
Yeah, from within, more than from foreign enemies.
The military is here to make certain that other countries and terrorist don't get to take ours away. VOTING GOOD candidates, and then monitoring their behavior while in office is the responsibility of every member of this country. The fact that we failed and re-elected an incompetent idiot is not the fault of the military, it is the fault of all registered voters.
The military extends our empire as it stands. They are in no way protecting our freedom as our freedom is not in danger from foreign enemies.
Educational reimbursement is something that's available through many, many companies.
key word being companies
A previous employer payed for 80% of my degree and about $30,000 dollars in certifications. Why should the military offer less? In order to remain competitive in the job market, they MUST offer educational benefits.
Because the military is paid for by our taxes, and I don't want my money going to the education of someone else. They have a job, they can get loans. There is no reason a military person should get free tuition and someone else does not.
Score: [-] -80 [+].
Posted: 4 months ago by maven:
Ah...So you think it's free? That is a very sad misconception that you have.
Oh...And the 'company' that paid for my education? State government.
Score: [-] 65 [+].
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