I am. I have recently spent a long period of time with a freind who is a devout new lifer, and it has given me a lot of questions i want to gask, and get differnet opinions on. Please, i don't want afight, i DO want answers. Now at first glance some of my questions may seem a BIT offensive, but please please don't take it that way, i am just to the ppoint, thanks.

ALright,

1. Now as far as i can tell, most catholic/christians believe in both free will, and a devine plan. May i kindly ask how that works?

2. My freind said that if his god was not real, I (an atheist) wouldn't find murder wrong. What do you guys think.

3. What do yall think man is here for? (for religious and non religious.)

4. Also, if god were just why are millions of innocient men wemon and children dieing every day in wars and disease? Does he/she just hate africa?

I'm sure i have more, but now i forget. I may add them, and fell free to ask your own!

Thank you all for haelping me under stand,

Dorkfire, (who knows to little about religion(according to some))

I think you should treat yourself to looking at Wikipedia's argument from morality article. Or buy The God Delusion, which has a chapter on the morality argument.

Here's hoping the following helps:

Free will vs Determinism

Judaio-Christian religions adopt a paradoxical stance on this, amongst other things, but the attempted explanation for this paradox is as follows

1. You have free will
2. God is omniscient and so knows everything
3. This means that God knows what you will choose to do
4. God has factored this into his grand design

However, point 2 is asserted and not proven. This is the peg off which the entire dilema hangs, and so this is not a very satisfactory answer.

Determinism, as a philosophical concept, argues that there is no such thing as free will. It starts off with the laws of physics that govern the world around us and then extrapolates that these laws apply to the decision making process as it is carried out by a physical thing, i.e. the brain, albeit on a hugely more complex level. It is this complexity that gives the illusion of choice and free will.

One popular refutation of this is that "the soul" whatever that maybe is seperate from the physical world and so is not governed by physical rules and so this is where free will originates. However, for the metaphysical to influence the physical, it must have a physical presence. And if the soul has a physical presence, then it is governed by the laws of physics.

There are ways of arguing round this, and if anyone forces you into a conversation about determinism, your best option is to use the word "quantum" as soon as you are able. Done right, it may make your assailant cry.

For further reading, I'd recommend The Philospher At The End Of The Universe by Mark Rowlands (ISBN 0091903882)

God as policeman

This one falls flat on its face. Murders are committed every day. Some of the murderers will think that the murder they committed was right. Where is your friend's God now?

Society is the reason the majority of us don't kill people. Society dictates that murder is wrong. We are reasoning individuals capable of understanding that if we go against the wishes and concensus of society, there will be consequences. If the consequences outweigh any benefits inherent in committing a murder, then we'd most likely not kill.

The point of it all

Erm... No, you've got me there.

Well, OK, I have a theory. Do you want to hear it? Alright then, if you insist.

I think we are all the creation of a universal mind that is trying to discover it's true nature by experiencing itself both subjectively and objectively from every possible vantage point.

But then in the past I have exhibited a fondness for Mexican funghi and that may go a long way to explaining that statement.

You are only at level 1


You don't start getting answers until your reach level 3.

THanks that did help...

And gave me a new question,

5. do you think suicide is wrong? the person is doing it to themselves.

and

6. Can sin really exist because, as you said god has everything planed out, so, no matter what you do, you're doing what he/she wanted... Right?

I believe the answer to number 6 is "not right", because some see suicide as a sin: you are ending your life prematurely, against God's will. So it seems that omnipotent God isn't actually in control, so is he really omnipotent?

Pocksucket explained this very well. God knows how the movie is going to end. We do not. God has taken these things into account. His plan will work no matter how bad we try to screw it up.


God believes in you whether you believe in Him or not. He made you, and gave us a sense of what is right and what isn't. If He didn't, we wouldn't have survived for this long.

I don't like the word "religion". I know some people who are devout motorcyclists. Their lives revolove around riding, maintenance and the general discussion of motorcycles. They read from the books of Harley, Yahama, Suzuki and Honda. In a way that is their religion.
This doesn't answer your question though.

We were created for God's pleasure. He wanted a relationship with us. People.
God hates sin. He will not tolerate it.
Unfortunately all people sin.
Adam and Eve got the pink-slip from the garden of Eden for comitting 1 (one) sin.

So are we all screwed?
No relationship with God; ever?

Hmmm...

The short answer is "NO".
God created a HUGE loophole so anyone can get into Heaven. All we have to to is believe. TRULY believe.

You may say, this is ridiculous. It's too easy. Well, if it's so easy, why are you not doing it? Why are there thousands of people who do not believe?

Lots of people ask this question.
To be honest with you, I don't know. Maybe He'd like us to do more about it.

Jesus boiled the ten commandments down to two.

Love God.
Love other people.

Personally, I am not doing enough. The money I spent on my newest TV very easily could have gone to to a person in Swaziland who is an orphan. But I thought about "me" first. Is this a sin? You betcha!

You're under the impression that Suicide affects just one person.
Lots of people are affected by the suicide of just one person. I knew of someone whose brother comitted suicide. He was known as "the guy who's brother shot himself" for a good portion of his life. That will mess you up for good.

No. God hates sin. He loves people.
I had a dog. She was a good dog, and I loved her a lot. But she constantly peed on the carpet, and I hated that. I knew she was going to do it, and I took precautions to avoid it, like locking her in the kitchen when I went to work. I was heartbroken when she finally died (I had her for 13 years), but I was glad that I didn't have to clean up her pee anymore.

I'll answer from the non Christian view.

No idea how they seem to make this work, but I believe in free will. It's real easy to say, "Well, God made you do it", but it can't really be proven, can it.It depends on how you were raised. If your parents and society told you it was wrong to murder other humans, that's what you would believe. I mean, our society sees nothing wrong with murdering cows, chickens, and various other animals, yet some cultures find that practice repulsive. On the same note, some cannibals see murdering other people as a means of food, and find nothing wrong with it. It's just the way you are raised.To have offspring, thus continuing the species, raise them, and then die off, giving room and resources to the next generation. Same with every other species on this planet.Everyone is on their own, to succeed or die. Most of Africa is just not advanced and/or wealthy as other developed countries, thus they still have many of the hardships that plaqued all humans at one time or another.

5. do you think suicide is wrong? the person is doing it to themselves.

No, I don't. Each of us has to deal with life in their own way. Who am I to say that a person that commits suicide wasn't strong enough to handle their issues? I didn't walk in their shoes.

I was discussing this with my wife the other night after seeing pictures of Tammy Faye Messner's cancer riddled body. I mean, she weighed 65 pounds at her death. Anyway, I told her, if I ever get cancer, or some other terminal disease, I'm checking out shortly after the doctors tell me there is nothing else they can do. I see no reason to go through the pain, the expense, and the stress for my family as I waste away before dying. I find it truly horrific what we expect some people to go through in their final days or weeks before their death.

6. Can sin really exist because, as you said god has everything planed out, so, no matter what you do, you're doing what he/she wanted... Right?

It exists for the people that believe it. It's a way for them to stay on the straight and narrow. Doesn't mean people that don't believe in sin are bad people, they just have other methods of doing the right thing.

I'll try to be brief.

God does not control people, He guides people. Like anyone on a tour with a guide, you can choose to follow the guide and listen to the guide, or you can choose not to.

Free will is on a micro scale - it's about the choices you make day in and day out. You can make choices inline with what God wants or inline with what you want. The 'Devine Plan' is on a macro level. Just because you choose to do something God doesn't like (freewill in action) doesn't mean you all the sudden don't believe in God or God doesn't like you. Despite the freewill choice, the Divine Plan is still in place.

Not true. Murder is a crime according to government law. The religious person follows religious law and government law. The non-religious person just follows the government law.

From the Christian standpoint, man is here to love God and to love others. From a non-religious standpoint, man is here for man - what man chooses to devote man's life to (family, work, plime) is up to the individual.

God is just, man (generalization) is not just. God's Divine Plan is to end all suffering. But man chooses what man wants, more times than not, man chooses selfishly.

Suicide signifies a total loss of hope for the future. I don't think suicide is beneficial to anyone.

Man can choose to do whatever man wants to do. There is a 'Godly' choice and a 'sinful' choice. The sinful choice is basically what God would not want you to do. God's plan is the 'macro' Divine Plan which never changes. Sinning doesn't mess up this plan.

$0.02:

My mother's a devout catholic, and she explains this by believing that god only has a larger, vague plan for us; we have the choice to do what we want but will have to suffer the consequences of choices that are 'against gods plan'... by doing the 'right' thing, by picking the 'right' door, you are following god's plan. If you don't, you'll get smacked around by life a bit, enough for you to return to god's plan. Or something like that.

Almost any human will tell you murder is wrong, and this moral is independant of religion. I don't believe in a god, but I think murder is wrong (with the exception being self-defence, of course). If you can't give someone a life, what gives you the right to take it?

Besides, the 'god' in the bible both committed and condoned murder on numerous occasions.... so I think that saying 'god exists because everyone thinks murder is wrong' is an invalid arguement.

Well, we evolved into humans, so our most basic purpose is to reproduce and further our species. I think to maximize our potential here, our purpose as a human race is to help each other along and become a peaceful, kind species that is concerned with the wellbeing of ourselves as a human race and our physical world.

People are suffering in Africa, for example, because they cannot get along (political unrest) and because they live in a rather harsh environment that cannot sustain the population based upon the agricultral techniques currently being employed in those regions. I don't believe in an omnipresent 'god', but I think that it is our duty as fellow humans to take care of those who are suffering.

Where I'm coming from: I'm a proud non-Christian who was raised by a man with a PhD in religious studies and I grew up in the Wesleyan church.

I think your friend's an idiot. Not believing in the Christian god doesn't mean you must have no morals. You, too, are a human being, and humans have compassion and conscience (if they don't they are diagnosed as a sociopath and deemed a threat to society).

Biology.. That's all I'm saying.

Pretending that god exists, it has a sick sense of humor ;)

"Religion", to me, is what brainless people have to dictate their lives for them. They go to church, their leader tells them what to believe, they absorb everything they hear and then, without questioning it, they believe and follow whatever the leader said. They're manipulatable pawns who can not think for themselves.

"Faith", on the other hand, I respect (even if it is as idiotic as "magic man done it")

Also, if there were a god, I hate how Christians (or any religious zealots for that matter) always seem to talk for it.

"God loves you", "God would want you to eat your peas", "God doesn't like it when you think that".

Yeah, says who? Did God come to you and tell you that masturbating is a sin? You have those fluids build up and they need to come out somehow.

"Well, the Bible says so"

ORLY? Back in the day, only the higher-ups could read or write. That means that people who could read and write had the power to twist the religious texts to mean things that would benefit themselves. The lowest caste certainly couldn't call the higher-ups out on it if they couldn't read.

And even if corrupt government were somehow a new thing, the Bible has been translated so many times into so many languages. One word: Babelfish.

I'm going to preface my response with "How many religeous conversations do we need to have on this site?"

Anyway:

There are two theories, that there is a divine plan, and that we have free will. There is also the combination theory that your friend seems to subscribe to (that we have free choice, but God knows what we're goign to do, so it falls into his plan). I believe God gave us free will and adjusts his planning based on what choices we make.

It's preposterous to think that you must subscribe to a religion in order to have morals. Religions are a wonderful foundation for moral vallues, but not necessary. There are plenty of atheists who have successful relationships and families, and don't go off on killing sprees because they know that it is morally wrong to do. On the flip side, there are religious people who go on killing sprees and find insane justifications (like purifying the human race = Hitler).

To procreate and populate the earth. Mission accomplished. We need to look to the rest of the universe now.

Does it upset you when you step on an ant? What about a whole colony of ants? Keep things in perspective.

tundramonkey: I don't agree with all your comments, but they are well put. I'm not a devout catholic/protestant/whatever, but I believe there is a God (known by many different names by many different people, who have all ascribed all sorts of rules and attributes over the course of history). It would be weird (for me) if God turned out to be an old man or a wiccan woman or anything humanoid, since God is likely to be someone completely out of our own limited understanding. We humans have put a human face/personality on God to help us try and understand him.

donteatpoop: You worry about too many of these conversations in this community (but you participate anyway, hehheh.). Let's keep it free: let's all talk/ask all we want, and if anyone doesn't want to participate, then they don't have to...

dork: In my mind the fact that we are asking all these questions and discussing them, and trying to act well/good in our lives, that is more important than the answer to the questions, since the answers may be different for different people.

Sigh. Godwank again.
The world would be a better place if people stopped worrying about what is going to happen to them after they die (without any proof - and "belief" is not proof - that ANYTHING is going to happen) and just concentrated on being good to other human beings and taking care of the world we live in right now.

But then again, I feel I was not invited to this particular discussion.

To answer your questions:
1. Now as far as i can tell, most catholic/christians believe in both free will, and a devine plan. May i kindly ask how that works? God has a plan, but he does not control people's wills. He let's people decide things for themselves and grow as individuals.

2. My friend said that if his god was not real, I (an atheist) wouldn't find murder wrong. What do you guys think.
I think that yor friend is gravely mistaken. YOU don't have to believe in God to have morals.

3. What do yall think man is here for? (for religious and non religious.) I can't say I know what we're here for...I know that we're here, and we live our lives the best we can.....so I guess just to give God somethin to do? I have no clue.

4. Also, if god were just why are millions of innocient men women and children dieing every day in wars and disease? Does he/she just hate africa?
You have to understand that people die everyday...It's a natural part of life. everything has a beginning, middle, and an end. It's just that simple to me. It may hurt when other people die, but we have to learn to live with it. One day you will die, and so will I.

Nope, I have a deal

I read this report about near death experience at

Those who have an NDE seem to find all the answers to the questions and are happy.

I haven't had an NDE yet, so I can't say..

. Now as far as i can tell, most catholic/christians believe in both free will, and a devine plan. May i kindly ask how that works?

This was very hard for me to digest to but God does have an ideal path for us. However, he did also give us free will, allowing us to stray from this path.Often if we find ourselves very unhappy it is because we have strayed from the path that God had chosen for us and it is not until we get back on that path that real happiness can be attained.

Imnotyoo, bandit, pocksucket and rambler, you all just totally moved me with your responses...

I struggle on religion, daily, as an ex catholic.

I love all you guys! *sniff*

I too am an ex-Catholic.
I quit going to church when I was about 20. I didn't see the point.

I won't bore you with the details of how I became a believer, but actually reading my bible had a lot to do with it.

Oh, my dear I have done mucho research on Catholics and the more I delve, the uglier it got.

Reading the bible has ALOT to do with my faith and understanding, but I feel I have more to learn.

Catholics never read from the bible in church.