Just a thread to which debates/discussions on religion, god, faith, the bible can be redirected to when they crop up in invariably inappropriate/unrelated threads.

If you don't wish to join the discussion in an adult manner or don't wish to add anything to the conversation then I'd politely ask you to leave the thread well alone. This also applies to anyone thinking about thread-jacking merely because they don't like/agree with the subject matter

I read the title and was like "what? no."

Then I read the thread's creator and figured I ought to poke my head in. Without Mershaullk around to stir the pot for religious debates, I moved most of my debating moods and ideas to another forum.

Blasphemous!! I know :(

Laugh all you want but I have been watching Jesus Christ Superstar a lot recently (I like the music).

One thing bothers me, Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, that we all know, but Jesus Knew he was going to do it and knew the outcome. God planned for Jesus to die to save the souls of everyone he planned for Judas to betray Jesus yet the bible states that Satan entered Judas and caused him to betray Jesus. What's the deal? Was Judas a pawn of God or of Satan? Why do we call betrayers "Judas" when he was doing Gods work?

Just because God knew it was going to happen that way didn't mean that he was the one that told Judas to do it.

You know... something funny about that... I got to watching this special on the History Channel that outlines ALL the books that DIDN'T make the cut to be in the bible... and there are several saying that Judas DIDN'T sell Jesus at any price...

Like a vote, you know, majority rules? 12 apostles... 4 of them say he did... 8 say he didn't... I tend to go with the majority on this one...

I started this thread in response to this comment.

So here goes

One such specific instance of the ignorance of the bible is as follows....


Slavery. The Ten Commandments would have been a great place for god to say, "Thou shalt not keep slaves". But instead what we have is the following

Deuteronomy 5:21

Neither shall you covet your neighbour’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.


So, instead of condemning slavery we get, "Don't be looking at your neighbours slaves" and other such important things as, "Quit worshipping other gods, it makes me jealous and pissed off".

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

(Exodus 21:20-21)

You'd think that god having a timeless set of morals not governed by human time frames and what is considered acceptable at any given time would have made it plain to his people that slavery was wrong, full stop.

Jesus could have corrected this right? His morals were surely far ahead of his time and superior to mine and yours, what with him beings gods son/god.

Instead we get..

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

(Ephesians 6:5)

Jesus heals a Roman centurions slave yet fails to make any comment on the immoral nature of keeping another human as property

(Luke 7:1-17)


They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.


(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)


Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

(Numbers 31:7-18)

Do I need to explain why believing in a god who endorses and approves of such actions as killing children and the raping of young virgin girls is, IMO, ignorant.


God approves of and allows human sacrifice

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."



"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."

(Judges 11:29-40)

Ignorant to believe in such a god.

The death, annihilation and burning of those who don't believe in or worship god

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

(Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

Worshipping a god who is so insecure and in need of human adoration that he commands that those who don't worship him exclusively should be Burt to death?

Again ignorant to worship and believe in such a god.

The fact that to this day Christians believe that a practising gay person, someone who lives out their love for a fellow human being will be sent to hell. Again, ignorant.

I could go on and on but I'll leave you to do any further research into the book you gain your beliefs from.

You asked :)

I'm not sure how many "inappropriate/unrelated threads the discussion/debates on religion etc. crop up", but my impression in the whole Plime experience is that there are a couple of fanatic pro-religion plimates, and a couple of fanatic atheist plimates.

I've found myself being forced to take a more rigid stand on my own believes (....out loud, I mean, as I'm not wandering around not knowing what to believe).

In every day life, I feel the need to respect whatever other people believe. As long as it makes them happy, right?

However, on the internet, people tend to feel the need to press their ideas too long and too hard, that gets me pissed...
I'm not forcing anyone to believe Tolkiens middle earth is real up to the point I have them check their closets for orks, so I do not appreciate others forcing a different book down my throat.

In the end I think that religion is based upon your believes...."believe" means: to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.

So...anyones "believe" is their own, and everyone probably has a good reason to believe the things they are.

Being born in a Christian family, I now believe there is no such thing as a god. Believe isn't based on facts, it is based on what you hope for, in my case the hope is: no god (because I hate the idea that things won't be over for me when I die)


next

This raises in a broader aspect a huge problem with the Christian idea of "Free will".

God is supposedly omniscient and omnipresent, he moves outside of the realms of time as we know it YET if this is the case, he knew before he created Adam and Eve that they would sin*. he knows what you and I will do and become. really there is no actual free will if you believe in the Christian, biblical god.


*Which further begs the question, if god knew the outcome of the whole, "Garden of Eden" debacle and the resulting fall into sin, why carry on regardless? Why not modify his creation and create it in such a way that allowed for man to have a merry old life?

Does belief in a God cause premature heart failure...stroke...cancer...freckles...or some other personal injury?


Just trying to find the harm coming the believers way that the non-believers are going to save them from.

:) Goes both ways. For me, it's not a matter of caring what others believe is right or wrong, as long as they don't try judging me or condemning me. I grant them the right to go to hell in their own way, they let me make the same decision.

Jesus being crucified was Gods will. He knew that the only way that Jesus would be crucified was if Judas betrayed him. Therefor Judas was carrying out Gods will.

Ask the relatives of 9/11 victims


To me living a life believing something that's not true to the best of my knowledge and using all methodology possible at my disposal means a HUGE deal to me.

Being raised fearing god, feeling guilty for my sinful state, worrying whether god would save me at "his great tribulation", Armageddon, being force-fed this as "the truth" then coming to the realisation that there's no logical, factual basis for any of this is was a massive relief.

I guess I imagine that others put a huge amount of value on whether their beliefs, beliefs they live their life by a true also. Maybe they don't.

Maybe I'm missing the point of your comment. Were you genuinely interested and asking a question or in a roundabout expressing disapproval of some of the comments here or the nature of the thread?

You should have just said Hitler, and won the thread.




Where have I heard this type of remark before...Oh yeah, from (insert favorite religion here)

THIS is the point of my comment. You are just as guilty of meddling into others personal beliefs as anyone. A plimer or family member or friend doesn't need you or anyone else correcting, disapproving, enlightening, or any thing else into their personal beliefs. If someone wishes to be enlightened by another's wisdom, usually they ask for it, otherwise it's intrusive, no matter which side it is.

No one asked you or anyone else into this thread. I presume you came in, read the OP and had the choice to read on or stay.

Seriously dude, I started this as a place to have debate and discussion about religion, god or spiritual beliefs.

Can we not have one religious discussion without these sorts of comments and threadjacks and quite frankly disruptive comments?

You don't like hearing different opinions and beliefs? Fine, but leave others who do want to discuss and debate to do it in peace.

But they're not happy. If they were they might do as you suggest and be secure in their own personal beliefs.

Most of the religious in the world seem to think their religious beliefs trump anything and they attempt to control the lives of the rest of us.

They want to outlaw both abortion and birth control.

They want to outlaw same sex marrage.

They insist being gay is a chosen life style.

They murder in the execution of their beliefs.

Religious beliefs are the cause for most of the
armed fighting going on in the world today.

Some religions are hoarding vast treasure and still will not feed their starving.

They can violently disagree with conflicting opinion and completely disregard science and historical truths.

They killed thousands for the "crime" of being a heritic during the inquisition.

Some religions actively intefere with the belief of others.
(Mormons baptizing the dead of other religions as one example.)

They dispatch various missionarys because they have no respect for other beliefs.

They insist on erecting icons and idols of their religion in schools and public places and install their school prayer regardless of the beliefs of the children of different faith parents.


This list could go on for quite a bit. I think this is sufficient to make the point.

It would be great if live and let live would be a satisfactory solution. If only they could enjoy their magic person in the sky and leave the rest of us alone the problem might be solved. But the need to convince themselves that they are right fosters the need to yell the loudest.

Uh, I thought I was offering a different opinion...maybe just not one you wanted to hear.

I think you meant to say that you started this thread to prove that others beliefs were ignorant...

I will leave your thread though DL.

I really don't care what anyone believes. Some things I think are silly, but I'm sure people think the same of my beliefs so I seldom comment.

I have a HUGE problem with religious people, notably leaders, spewing lies and misinformation, especially regarding science. They wouldn't like it if I proclaimed their god/prophet to be a lie and the millions of preachers/priests/etc to be scammers, so they ought to understand why we get mad when they make claims like evolution being a scam and radioactive decay rates changing over time. No, no, no.

While all evidence thus far leads me to believe there probably isn't a god, I'm confident that if there is one, it definitely isn't a "he."

I have my own beliefs but respect others beliefs. If someone wants to share their beliefs with me in a non "you must believe this way", I'd be more than happy to listen.

Just don't show up on my doorstep on a weekend shoving pamphlets in my face "spreading your word".

2 things I hate to argue about and WON'T:
1) Religion
2) Politics

This seems like an interesting thread - I left work with no response yet to my comment, and I come home to 16 comments including 1 new thread.
I hope to get back to it tonight, but may have to tomorrow. You raise interesting points, but not new ones. Have you read beyond the Bible itself? Meaning, have you read commentary and the like?

I need to take the time to break down each point at a time. They are all fair questions, and I hope to get to them. In the meantime have a great night.

Religious people are ignorant. Athiests are ignorant. They are one and the same, both dogmatically believe something that they have absolutely no way of knowing. Is it so hard to accept that there are some questions that we just don't have any answers for?

And now its time for..a Feynman quote

"I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and in many things I don’t know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we’re here, and what the question might mean. I might think about a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell. It doesn’t frighten me. "

I think that the only time religion becomes an issue is when it is no longer a private affair but is in the public, like with religious politics.

If there was no religious political activism, there would be no need for atheistic political activism, although I have yet to see any influential or significantly noticeable atheistic politics in the US in any case.

I think that a lot of religious people are put off by what they perceive as the radical nature of atheists. It is ironic then that these people say of the religious fundamentalists that they are not "real" Christians, that they are somehow not a valid part of Christianity, and that they are fringe groups, but they only consider the most radical and noisy atheists when they talk about atheists. If an atheist does something noticeable and crazy, people think that that is what atheism is, but very few people think of fundamentalists as the face of Christianity.

But as much as there are Christians of different levels of radicalism and fervor, so too there are atheists who are at different levels of moderation. Maybe not the famous ones, but I do wonder whether it would do any good if atheists showed the public a more moderate side. Perhaps if the religious fundamentalists agreed to stop trying to force their views upon others through control of public policy, atheists could afford to do that.