Here's your answer. I will die. I'm not any more special than you...did you die? No, have you ever had a near death experience? I look at it this way, all people will die, but God takes the time to save some according to His will (He's strange like that). Why some and not others? You won't like the answer...but I dunno! (that wasn't one of your options).
Paul (the apostle...wrote a lot of the New Testament) was often beaten to where he was close to death, and then nursed back to health. He was rescued from death even when he most likely would have rather died. Yet Stephen (the first Christian Martyr) was killed his first time attacked. Why?
I think if I get bogged down in the "why me?" I miss the point. Being a Christian is a personal belief in God...my evidence is my evidence. I have seen God save ME. I have seen God save others...I have seen others die. A few months ago I transported the body of a 11 year old boy in the back of my van (hearses are hard to come by in Africa). He died suddenly, he was sick Sunday afternoon and dead that evening. I guess I could look at that and say "well forget that He has saved me from death a few times...dammit that kid died. He's no God". Or I could take the bad with the good. Can you argue that bad exists? Can you argue that good exists? No on both cases. Jesus taught that both exist in an extreme. In our current state I don't think we would be able to recognize the good if we didn't see the bad.

These are some random thoughts that I put together quickly. But think about it. Why are you discounting the existence of God because bad things happen?

"He's strange like that"? Errr, okay. You are right though it's very strange.



It's okay to say you don't know. But being comfortable enough with, "I don't know" to not replace that with myth is a whole different issue.

That's not the reason I discount any gods (Not just your god but any). There are many reasons, the main one being I've never seen, smelt, heard or touched a god or seen any evidence of one.

The fact that people claim god interferes and intervenes in some peoples lives and not others is however compelling for me against the theists notion of a personal god who cares and loves all mankind.

The notion that he's saved your life many times whilst on the other side of the world as your life was being saved thousands of others were being lost has no logical, reasonable explanation as you yourself admit.

I just don't feel compelled or have any reason to hold true that which isn't logical, makes no sense and has no merit for me.

At the end of the day if it feels good for you, if it's comfortable then more power to you. But to argue for the existence of a god and provide 'evidence' that you yourself admit makes no sense is foolish.

You even commented earlier that people who don't believe in a god "know the rules but whether we choose to play by them is up to us".

Yes, I know the Christian rules, supposedly god's rules, "Believe, do as god says or else".

I don't believe in god, if gods so eager for me to believe and love him, so eager that he's willing to let me burn in hell for eternity if I don't, then why doesn't he provide proof of his existence for everyone? Why play hide and seek when eternal torment is at stake?

On this note, do you think it's morally ok for me to burn in hell forever when I die for the 'sin' of not believing?

If a human behaved the way God does, he wouldn't qualify entrance to Heaven.

So your point is?
We can debate all we want what is rape and what isn't, raping a male specimen of an other species will not be reproduction. And even your example is more about power than just reproduction. It is not about who will f**k, but who will be the daddy. Does it hurt the females? Are they in pain? Oh, it is natural for them, they don't know anything better I guess, so that is all right then.

So why is it OK with you if an animal suffers, if the animal is in pain for whatever reason? They deserve it? They like it?

I can ensure you it is horrible to the rat too.

None of us are going to convince each other of anything. But honestly, God doesn't ignore anyone. We can ignore God. I almost gave up, yes, but I still had enough faith and I still let Him in when He wanted to help. Personally, I can see now that the timing was good. I may not have been ready or it may not have been needed until when it happened. It started when I was talking with some of my Christian friends and they offered to pray with me. I figured that it couldn't hurt, and I did it with them, and that's all that had to happen, as God decided that was the time to get things moving.

God doesn't interfere with people's free will. If people reject God's love and act out of hatred and violence, it is the fault of the people, as we are living in a fallen world that is full of sin. If God was to interfere, He would have to remove that free will, and that would be a worse consequence than some comfort. If He wanted us to be without free will He wouldn't have created humanity as it is. Removing that free will would be a worse consequence because it would remove our ability to make free decisions and choices. But just because someone is suffering horribly, it doesn't mean God is ignoring them, even if they are pious. The story of Job is a prime example of that, and serves as a lesson for those in that situation (and I do know some who have been, truly, and are still very faithful Christians, despite all the horrific pains they've been through... I count them among some of my most special friends).

Now, you can choose to believe what you want, I don't expect to change your mind, but this is what I see, and this is what I experience.

So when millions die of starvation and disease it's because they ignored god, not the other way round?


So if god doesn't help it's him not interfering with free will, if he does help that's evidence of god? So either way god's in a win win situation when it comes to your thinking. If you pray for something and it happens it's god, if you pray for something and it doesn't it's just god not interfering with free will?

If we're talking god given free will then it's impossible for god to answer prayers without interfering with that.

If you don't mind me asking, when your friends prayed for you what happened to let you know that god touched you? I'm just wondering what has you so convinced of the existence of god and why you hold that belief to be true

I never once said it was alright, I said it was necessary to the survival of the species.

I said it was foolish to ascribe human morality to an animal.

Can you honestly point at a shark and call it 'evil'?

It is doing exactly what it needs to do in order to survive.


I'm pretty sure the snake doesn't care.

Do you believe this makes the snake evil?

Would it be a lesser sin to starve to death?

Actually, what I was trying to get at (granted, it may have been lost in my wording) was that God will help everyone, on His own terms. That means while God will do what is best for people, it may not necessarily be what we expect is best for ourselves, and it will be through avenues that do not interfere with free will. He may in many cases use people who choose to submit to His will, out of free choice, or He may use a tragic event and turn the outcome into something that is wonderful (a 'life gives you lemons, make lemonade' kind of thing, but applied to God). He may also give the one being afflicted the strength to be able to overcome or deal with whatever is going on in their life, too. Just making the bad people stop isn't something that I would expect God to be doing. Even in the most extreme cases, like with Pharaoh and the Hebrew slaves in the Old Testament, God still preserved Pharaoh's free will throughout everything. He didn't just make him free the slaves.

I don't want to go into too many details as it touches a more or less personal area in my life, but when we prayed together, God used my friends as a conduit, of sorts, to come into myself, and essentially "purge" me of what was afflicting me (not a physical disease, I mean, but rather something more akin to a psychological addiction). It made it something manageable, and still through prayer I'm working through it, but I've made so much more progress in these few short months than I did on my own in several years. And along with this, we did have a bit of a shared vision experience, which is also a bit of a neat thing (it actually was one of the first times I've had an experience like that).

I don't want to get into too many details, like I said, though, as it is a personal area in my life. I can only speak for how the experience impressed me, though.

That doesn't sound like God reaching directly to you, that sounds like you went to a prayer group.

what? no. stop.

No. Stop. You stop right there.

This world is beautiful. This world is filled with life, joy and wonders like you clearly cannot imagine.

There are twelve-foot tubeworms that live three miles straight down, under pressures that would crush you like an eggshell. They live in a world completely devoid of sunlight, something thought impossible right up until the moment they were discovered.

There are microscopic, parasitic worms that have evolved the ability to chemically reprogram the primitive brains of their hosts, in order to direct their hosts towards the next step of the worm's life cycle.

There are trees that, when attacked by beetles, release pheromones that call in parasitic wasps to help rid the tree of what would otherwise destroy it.

This world is magnificent.

Don't you ever say that about my world, ever again.

Don't you ever disgrace your God by calling his creation 'fallen' and 'sinful.'

You speak for yourself and you keep my world out of it.

So if there's no real definition or indication of what god will or won't help with and it's all up to him who he chooses to help or not, then I just cannot understand or comprehend why anyone would put any consequences in the natural world down to a supernatural being.

I don't see how anyone can make the leap from, "Something good happened to me therefore it must be god". If we attribute good things that happen to a god then why not attribute the bad things that happen to that same god also? I strongly suspect it's because people pick and choose events that bolster their comfortable beliefs.


Well you know what, I'm glad it worked for you to help you through whatever it was that was bothering you.

I'll leave it there because so far you haven't asserted to me that god exists as a fact and you haven't insinuated terrible things that will happen to me for not believing.

I was about to get into talking about how prayer works as a placebo etc, but ya know what, if it's worked for you then cool.

*Jazz Hands!*

*clears throat...

Now troubles are many, they're as deep as a well.
I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.
I swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell, but I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell.

Dude, he said he didn't want to talk about it, he's gone into as much detail as he wanted to try and answer my question, he didn't need to do that but did.

FFS, leave the guy be. You or I may not agree with what he's saying, I could pick holes in what Sidran said all day long but at some point you have to treat people with dignity.

He's been polite, he's not been judgemental, condescending stated that his beliefs are fact (as another believer here has).

Whatever you and I think or know, that's a human being you're speaking to, a human being who deserves a bit of respect when we're dealing with something obviously important to him

C'mon dude.

Honestly, I was just trying to be funny.

I edited it, nothing to see here.

Yeh well don't expect me to believe that some god's blackmailing me into living me life how he wants. If he is, f**k him.

Hell and heaven sound like god's a cross between a Mafia boss, "Pay me or I'll break your f**king legs", and a a snidey control freak who dangles a carrot (heaven) to blackmail humans into doing what he wants.

Either way he's acting like a d**k. I don't hang around with d**ks. Apart from you of course Hoosk.

The whole heaven and hell thing really nullifies the free will argument. Free will isn't, "You can do whateverrrrrr you want, but if you don't do what I say you'll fry forever in hell"

That's like me saying to my kids, "Hey, Burger king or McDonalds, it's your choice. Just so as you know though that if you pick Burger king I'm totally going to ground you for six months, break your toys and whoop your ass. But the choice is totally yours"

No you weren't. Don't pm me with one thing and say the opposite here.

I'm going to point out that while I edited my post, you still haven't edited yours.

I also really don't think the above post was at all necessary.

But okay, fine.

Your statement about my world made me extremely angry, Sidran.

I am sorry.

Just because you choose to retract a statement doesn't mean that everyone else has to automatically run around editing their replies.

You haven't even asked

God has spoken to Joe The Plumber