Uh huh

I don't see why. Plenty of species survive without raping any females.

I'm sorry that it did, but while there is a lot of beauty and wonder in the world, I'm sure that no one would deny that people do horrible things. There's war, famine, sickness, and all sorts of things in the world, and it's pretty rampant, especially in some areas. That is what I'm talking about. When a Christian says a fallen world, he/she is saying that the world is full of sinful people, that there is evil and pain in the world, as I said.

God created us that way though right? If he'd created us perfect and not made us pay through the generations for the mistake of Adam and Eve then there would be no 'sin'.

You don't know that... a female gorilla may be moaning in ecstasy to you, but to the male gorilla she is saying:

"You may take this body, but it will not be me..."

And THAT! is survival of the species...

The only difference here is no female gorilla had the choice to an abortion...

Well, that's part of what you get with free will. While it allows a greater and more meaningful relationship with God, it also means people can choose to do bad things. The mistake of Adam and Eve, I believe, shows that we have inherited a tendency to want to act according to our own pride and for our own benefit, which can often lead us on paths contrary to God's will, paths that hurt others. Perfection would mean that we don't have a choice and that we just exist as robots, basically, but as we are not, we have the ability to gain something greater, allowed to us by our ability to reason and think, our ability to choose and our ability to be individuals. I see that our free will lets us develop in ways that are unique and diverse, and be pleasing to God if we choose to be in all things.

God has free will and yet he can do no wrong. Why not create humans the same?


Actually god allowed Adam and Eve to be deceived by a mush smarter supernatural being. Adam and Eve fell into gods trap, which I still have no idea why he felt the need to tempt them when he must as an omnipotent being have know the outcome to. He set them up for an inevitable fall.

Still doesn't answer the question as to the unjustness of god making mankind pay for thousands of years for the mistake of someone else.

It's akin to me punishing my children's children for something my kids have done wrong now. That's not just or moral.

Should my children go to jail if I murder someone? Obviously no.



So god's robot?

According to the bible I don't have a choice as to whether I believe in god or do what he wants. Not a real choice. I do as I'm told or hell.

It's not my fault I don't believe in god, it's not a choice I make, and according to Christianity I'll burn eternally for that? Does that seem moral to you

By the way if there's only one thing you respond directly and clearly to could you make sure it's my last question.

God has free will and yet he can do no wrong. Why not create humans the same?


Actually god allowed Adam and Eve to be deceived by a much smarter supernatural being. Adam and Eve fell into gods trap, which I still have no idea why he felt the need to tempt them when he must as an omnipotent being have know the outcome to. He set them up for an inevitable fall.

Still doesn't answer the question as to the unjustness of god making mankind pay for thousands of years for the mistake of someone else.

It's akin to me punishing my children's children for something my kids have done wrong now. That's not just or moral.

Should my children go to jail if I murder someone? Obviously no.



So god's robot?

According to the bible I don't have a choice as to whether I believe in god or do what he wants. Not a real choice. I do as I'm told or hell.

It's not my fault I don't believe in god, it's not a choice I make, and according to Christianity I'll burn eternally for that? Does that seem moral to you

By the way if there's only one thing you respond directly and clearly to could you make sure it's my last question.

Infanticide is standard in every animal in the world except for us.

Well, if it's not your fault that you don't believe in God, I don't think it's something that will make you burn in hell for (which, by the way, that image of hell is a bit cultural, we don't know what it is, other than it's eternal separation from God, and that if we are made to be with God, then it would be of course unpleasant). I think I stated this somewhere previously, but basically, I believe that some may be saved even if they aren't Christians. That is by the grace of God, and is because God may still work and influence our lives, even if subconsciously (see how many people still have an innate sense of morality even if it is not tied to being part of a church, I consider that something God gave us as a way to find Him). For some they may be numbed to it, or ignore it, through conditioning, but if one cannot for whatever reason, or has not been shown God as He is, and hasn't experienced Him, through no fault of their own, if they still live a life that is pleasing to God, they may still be saved. The belief that all non-believers will go to Hell I consider a corruption and grave misunderstanding of Christianity, despite it being propagated for a long time.

On Adam and Eve, I wouldn't say God set up a trap for them, but rather laid out some guidelines and expected them to follow them. Of course we all have things that we can and can not do. Even as kids, your parents said "you can play with your toys but not in the kitchen", or "don't touch daddies power tools" or things like that. It's for their own benefit, though they may not know it, and may see it as being mean. Adam and Eve couldn't eat from the fruit of that tree for whatever reason, but they were tempted by an evil spirit to do so, by saying that God basically was a meanie and that they would become great like Him if they did it.

Of course it may seem unjust to make your kids pay for something you committed. I would say it would be too. But, it wouldn't be God's punishment, but rather Adam and Eve introducing sin to the world, and therefore, screwing it up for future generations. Like with pollution, we have introduced toxins into the atmosphere and environment. It used to be perfect, but by our own irresponsibility and action, we have screwed it up for our children. Now the children have to try and clean up the world, just as now God's children have to clean up the sin from the world, or combat it. If that makes any sense to you.

People are a very, very small part of this world. We compose a microscopic fraction of its total weight and volume, and we are BY NO MEANS the most populous.

There are more insects per square mile than people on this planet. There are more species of insects than there are people on this planet.

People are very very small and not hardly as important as we think we are.

If you think God will destroy Earth because of humans, despite the innocence of Aphids, you are placing far too much importance on our species.

This world will do just fine when we are gone, no matter what we do to it.

Life will continue, humans will be forgotten, this planet will continue to turn until the sun explodes and devours it.

We are very very small.

Sickness has no sin.

Those diseases are life forms that are just doing what they do. Malaria does not have morality. It is simply Malaria.

Disease is not symptomatic of a "fallen" world, it is evidence of the endless forms of life on this planet.

Bubonic plague does not understand sin, it understands survival.

Then talk about the people.

You leave my world out of it.

Again... not a common practice, but there are documented cases of infanticide in humans... Case in point, the woman who drowned her 5 children in a bath tub in Houston and who knows how many more there are that haven't been discovered...

No, god made the rules, Adam and Eve didn't they just didn't play by them. God is punishing thousands of generations and millions of people for the mistake Adam and Eve made. If you believe the bible that's an unmistakable fact.

Let me re-phrase.

Infanticide is not a big deal to any species on the planet but us.

Many species eat some of their own children, to restore nutrients and to weed out those obviously ill-equipped to live.

I mean to say that a gorilla who bears a child from rape always has the option of killing that child, ignorant as they are of Human morality.

Yeah... It's really just really a cool song.


Hey thanks...


wait!

Wait up. Hold on there. What's that you say?

I'm hoping that you can see the problem with this. You're sitting there as a self appointed ambassador for the Christian Church happily telling us that you personally are making it up as you go along.

The entire basis of Christianity, the foundation it is built upon, the point, the purpose, the essence of Christianity is that if you believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for the redemption of mankind and crucially rose again, defeating death then you will be saved.

Contrary to popular belief there's nothing about a code of conduct or any moral obligation in there to being a Christian. Just that there about the belief.

And you say that this is not the case. Do you have any basis for this?

God made the rules, Adam and Eve broke them. By breaking them, they introduced sinfulness into the world. And by introducing sinfulness into the world, and it propagates down through the generations. Before we were able to live in Eden (or, close to God, in perfection) as we were innocent. But because we no longer have that, we must be saved and turn towards God to let Him work in us in order to return to that kind of closeness. That's what Christianity is about, and is what the Bible is saying.

What is so sinful about sex? Because there was not 'APPLE'... your proverbial 'APPLE' yeah... it's more commonly known as a good f**k, for pleasure's sake, not for reproduction's sake...

And read the other books of the bible FFS, the ones that didn't make it into the *BOOK*... the ones that disclose incest and other monstrosities...

Which proves that this book is used to push an agenda and should not be taken at face value without question...

But the god of Christianity and the bible would have known that Adam and Eve would succumb to temptation, he created them and knew their workings intimately right?

Also god made the rules, he decided that because Adam and Eve didn't follow them that he would punish their offspring. Not fair or just.

God could have created them perfect as he apparently is yet he made flawed creation and them punished them for being flawed then decide to punish EVERYONE, EVER for their mistake.

If that's your gods sense of justice then I'm sorry but I'm happy for you to have him all to yourself.

God made the rules knowing that man could not stick to them, then sacrificed himself to himself to make up for the situation he'd created. It just doesn't add up to reality or truth whichever way you try to spin it.

He's god, he could have forgiven Adam and Eve and given them a second chance. Even sacrificed himself to himself way back when Adam and Eve first sinned instead of allowing things to drag on and on.

So you believe that if you aren't a Christian you won't go to Hell. True, I don't believe this necessarily, but people do go to Hell. But the basis for this isn't if you are Christian or not. It is rather your conscious rejecting of God up to your death. As God infused us all with the ability to know Him and His will (otherwise we would all be doomed to live without any ability to know Him), we are able to discern His will, in some extent. The Holy Spirit is a guide to all of us in that manner. It is what I consider the basis for the conscience, it is a mechanism that God will use to guide us even if we don't know God is using it.

Of course there is not salvation by works, it is by faith. But your works follow naturally by faith. But if one's faith is placed in this innate knowledge of Good, of course their morality will follow, as does their actions. It still comes from God, and so they may be doing God's will despite not knowing it is God.

But then if we can know God that way, we can know God better through study and fellowship in His church. If one has the innate ability to intuitively understand God, that is better than nothing. But it is not optimal, if God gave us divine revelation as is shown in scripture and tradition in the Church. You can be ok with what you figure out as you go along, but if you learn it up front and more completely, you will be better off (as can be said for many things).

Jesus did say that "no one comes to the Father but through me" (John 14:6) and this is true, for without Jesus having died on the cross, we would not be able to have salvation.

This is a good point that I will make regarding this:
The idea that one can be saved by the Grace of God despite them not knowing God is not a new one.