There are many cultures/religions that describe hell as a place that is absent of God.

Not everyone believes that the dammed souls will burn for eternity.

Yup, there's also religions that teach that the Hades in the bible that's used in hell dogma is merely death.

Heaven and hell aside, god plays hide and seek for no reason. I never had the patience for hide and seek when I was a kid, I still don't.



I was addressing Moes beliefs though.

pssst...sidran32.

but you had mentioned Heaven and Hell in a reply to me as well as a few others. I was just mentioning alternate "Hell endings"..."Directors cuts", if you will.

Heaven and Hell (Saw them last year in concert) aside, that changes nothing really. I was merely addressing it as a side issue.


Just a point, Hell was created for Satan and his demons right?

Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!



Also Revelation 20:10


Satan rebelled against god according to the bible, he wanted to separate himself from god. If the fiery lake that he was thrown into was symbolically a separation from god then how is that a punishment?

It also can't mean death as Satan according to the bible still exists.

It's this same lake of fire that 'sinners' and non-believers will be thrown into

Matthew 13:41,50


"The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8

20:11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. 21:8 But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.”

Revelation 14:10


"that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb."

In front of god, that doesn't sound like a separation to me.

It doesn't at all DL. But then again not a whole lot does make sense about organized religions other than the fact there's always a patriarchal figure throwing someone into some pit of despair, chaining them to rocks, pushing boulders, etc. What the real message here is this, you f**k with God(s) you get punished. Do as your told, abide by my rules and you'll have a nice cushy seat for all eternity.

Really when you strip religion down to its bare bones its kind of depressing.

Mithra versus Christ

Very interesting read for anyone interested in the origins of Christianity

Also interesting, Similarities between Jesus and Horus

I was just thinking about all this, and I am wondering where all the Atheists here come from. Especially those who say "boy the world is a terrible place...therefore there is no God". What do you have? Some have said "I'm a faithful husband"...so I'm going to assume you have a faithful wife. Most seem to speak good English ("internet" typos and grammar aside), so I'm going to assume most are from N. America and Europe. This interests me because I wonder why you say "bad things happen" when you experience bad things true, but life is relatively easy.
Let's go to where I am currently living. Here a good job pays $150 (US) a month (well 150,000 Shillings...but whatever). So cost of living is low right? No...cost of living is high. A kilo of beef costs more than a day's wages (for example). When my son was born I was told I could not even apply for his birth certificate until he was a month old, many babies born here are dead by then...saves the government issuing death certificates with the birth certificate. I could go on...but you get the idea.
I have not met an atheist yet! Now DL has said "African's are superstitious" which I will say is one of the most racist comments I've read on Plime (on the positive...way to go Plimates!...you take the high road and avoid racist comments). Africans have seen the spiritual realm as real. There are things that go on here that any scientist would have a hard time explaining. To say that "science" is the end all and be all to explaining the world leaves out a lot of what happens here. I have seen men have convulsions when they walk into a church that stops when they leave the church. I have seen people healed immediately, with a physical change that I can see. I know I know...you don't believe me because I'm "superstitious". I have already been called a liar on this thread, so what else. Everything I say about God is true. I have seen Him do miraculous things. If you refuse to believe in Him because "bad things happen" like your 2nd car broke down...then I guess knowing about the woman who was blind and therefore unemployable (forgot to mention that here..."handicapped"="unemployed" for the most part) and had the cataract removed from her eyes, and was able to get a job and afford a bus ride just won't move you at all.
I'm sorry that you can't believe in God. I will say maybe to read the book of Job (in the Old Testament) you might understand where I'm coming from. Bad things happen. It's true, I see it every day. But you know what? God is still there. And good things also happen, I see it every day. God is still there.

I think that the people who think like this are generally not referring to bad things in their life, but to the bad things they see happening in the world. Africa being a prime example of this.

Not to defend this view as I find it entirely ridiculous. Their is no reason to presume to know what gods plan is.

I too have heard of these so called "miracles". Cases where people have their problems cured just from walking into a church. I don't think it proves anything, scientists have known about the placebo effect for a long time.

I applaud your post.

Although I have seen much to make me wonder where God is, I too, have seen much more to assure me He is around.

The thing that bugs me with threads such as this is that there will never be a gray area.

It is always "This side and That side". It's no win, so why debate it?

Isn't it just as stupid as trying to convert someone to take on a new favorite sports team? There is no way I would ever support any other team than the Steelers, for example, so it would be annoying for someone to keep telling me how stupid my team was.

And that's fine. I don't make it my mission to convert anyone, I just want to believe what *I* believe.

Talk of believing in unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters is likened to believing in God, which I find condescending.

When I am at my lowest (and I have had many, MANY times where I have been brought to my knees), I have taken comfort in talking with my Higher power. My situation may not have even improved after that talk, but I feel like I need to connect and I feel better.

actually I think I belong in the grey area, I really have no frickin clue if there is a god or not.

Well, I can understand that. I guess what I meant to say was that the "shirts and skins" teams are pretty much locked into what they believe.

Why are you assuming that I've not had bad experiences or a testing life based where you ASSUME I live? How ignorant to assert that everyone in Europe and N.America have nothing but charmed life's.

I don't look at the world and think what a terrible place. I think a lot of bad things happen that wouldn't if there was a theist god who intervened and helped. A JUST OMNIPOTENT GOD WOULD NOT PICK AND CHOOSE WHO HE HELPED AND SAVED.



As someone with a mixed race daughter I find you resorting to calling me a racist equally laughable and outrageously insulting.

















Ritual murders carried out because of superstitious beliefs




Africa's witch children

The Niger River Delta in Africa is a living hell for many of its people. Massive industrial projects have poisoned the land and the water. Sickness and disease are rampant. The source of the region's problems is clear but many people do not blame the government, instead they have turned on their own children.

Encouraged by a group of evangelical preachers these parents are told to believe that their bad luck is the work of Satan, given human form in their own offspring. Their children are accused of making people ill, of poisoning food and polluting the drinking water.



East Africa has never managed to win a major football competition like the World Cup or the Olympics, for various reasons -- including witchcraft, as Hezekiah Wepukhulu (African reporter, is he racist too) found out.





If you run out of rational answers to my questions, which you obviously have as you avoid answering and resort to name calling and insults, then it's a pretty sad state of affairs.


Wow, appeal to flattery, on oft underused fallacy.


Again I ask the question you so eagerly avoid, what makes those people so special that your god pays particular attention to them while ignoring millions of others?

Also, have you ever seen god help an amputee?

God seems to really discriminate against amputee's when it comes to healing.

Don't play the 'poor me' card. Where exactly have you been called a liar? Nowhere, that's where. Disagreeing with your beliefs and interpretations of events is not calling you a liar.

True to you, yes.



How condescending! You think you're something special right? How dare you presume to think my life's so charmed that this is the worst thing that happens in my life. Arrogance at it's finest.

You're so sure of your world view that you think you have everyone in a little pigeon hole.


My answer to your claims of god picking and choosing who he helps and saves wasn't based on my experiences but those I see all over the world.


Why would it move me? I only have your word that these events took place. Others personal experiences don't count as evidence to me or I'd believe in Alien abductions. What makes you and your words so special that they should somehow provide automatic proof of god to me?


Don't be. I'm not sorry you don't believe in Zeus

You obviously haven't read a single comment of mine with any kind of interest or you'd have seen me say multiple times that I've read the bible cover to cover, not just the 'good bits' but in it's entirety.

Say it as many times as you want, it doesn't make it a reality for anyone else but you.

I seem to have touched a sore spot DL...and I'm sorry. I will stand by what I said though, that although there are hard things in this world...the majority who have experienced the most hardship are also those who have a firm believe in God. It's what I have experienced. My own experience...not yours, not someone elses. If you call it "my interpretation" or "my understanding" of how I see the world...and then call me condescending...you are a hypocrite. End of story.

Still you seem to skirt the questions I've asked repeatedly.

It's not a matter of a sore spot, when you call someone a racist be prepared to piss that person off.

It is condescending to assert that because you presume I live in Europe or America that I have a charmed life and the only worry I have is 'my second car breaking down'. That is not only narrow minded but also patronising.

The experiences you've had of people miraculously getting healed are unavoidably your interpretation of events and your understanding of events.

If god heals people then why does he pick and choose and why do I know of no one who has experienced this? Why does god pick and choose who to heal and why do we never see an amputee healed? Why has science never backed up any claims of miracles?

It's always word of mouth. That doesn't count to me as evidence of any gods. As I've said, if word of mouth were my basis for belief I'd believe in alien abductions.

You seem to want to very positively assert that there is a god but don't want to address any sticky questions that inevitably follow your claims.

I'm open-minded to ideas but not so open minded my brain falls out.

If you could just try to give me your personal answer to the questions I've asked in this comment then maybe the conversation could move in an actual direction instead of making a bare assertion and then ignoring any responses to it.

Gee, I wonder what could explain that...



Could also be their lack of education. Yeah, lets go with that.

When God said "Let there be light!"
Chuck Norris said "Say please."

Re-Creating the Big Bang

The story begins in 2061, when a colossal computer has solved the earth's energy problems by designing a massive solar satellite in space that can beam the sun's energy back to earth. The AC ( analog computer) is so large and advanced that it's technicians have only the vaguest idea of how it operates. On a $5 bet, two drunken technicians ask the computer whether the sun's eventual death can be avoided, or for that matter, whether the universe must inevitably die. After quietly mulling over this question, the AC responds: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
Centuries into the future, the AC has solved the problem of hyperspace travel, and humans begin colonizing thousands of star systems. The AC is so large that it occupies several hundred square miles on each planet and so complex that it maintains and services itself. A young family is rocketing through hyperspace, unerringly guided by the AC, in search of new stars to colonize. When the father casually mentions that the stars must eventually die, the children become hysterical. "Don't let the stars die," plead the children. To calm the children, he asks the AC if entropy can be reversed. "See," reassures the father, reading the AC's response, the AC can solve everything. He comforts them by saying, "It will take care of everything when the time comes, so don't worry." He never tells the children that the AC actually prints out: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
Thousands of years into the future, the galaxy itself has been colonized. The AC has solved the problem of immortality and harnesses the energy of the galaxy, but must find new galaxies for colonization. The AC is so complex that it is long past the point where anyone understands how it works. It continually redesigns and improves its own circuits. Two members of the Galactic Council, each hundreds of years old, debate the urgent question of finding new galactic energy sources, and wonder if the universe itself is running down. Can entropy be reversed? they ask. The AC responds: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
Millions of years into the future, humanity has spread across the uncountable galaxies of the universe. The AC has solved the problem of releasing the mind from the body and human minds are free to explore the vastness of millions of galaxies, with their bodies safely stored on some long forgotten planet. Two minds accidentaly meet each other in outer space, and casually wonder where among the uncountable galaxies human originated. The AC, which now is so large that most of it has to be housed in hyperspace, responds by instantly transporting them to an obscure galaxy. They are disappointed. The galaxy is so ordinary, like millions of other galaxies, and the original star has long since died. The two minds become anxious because billions of stars in the heavens are slowly meeting the same fate. The two minds ask, can death of the universe itself be avoided? From hyperspace , the AC responds: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
Billions of years into the future, humanity consists of a trillion, trillion, trillion immortal bodies, each cared for by automatons. Humanity's collective mind, which is free to roam anywhere in the universe at will, eventually fuses into a single mind, which in turn fuses with the AC itself. It no longer makes sense to ask what the AC is made of, or where in hyperspace it really is. "The universe is dying," thinks Man, collectively. One by one, as the stars and galaxies cease to generate energy, temperatures throughout the universe approach absolute zero. Man desperately asks if the cold and darkness slowly engulfing the galaxies mean eventual death. From hyperspace, the AC answers: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
When Man asks the AC to collect the necessary data, it responds: I WILL DO SO. I HAVE BEEN DOING SO FOR A HUNDRED BILLION YEARS. MY PREDECESSORS HAVE BEEN ASKED THIS QUESTION MANY TIMES. ALL THE DATA I HAVE REMAIN INSUFFICIENT. A timeless interval passes, and the universe has finally reached its ultimate death. From hyperspace, the AC spends an eternity collecting data and contemplating the final question. At last, the AC discovers the solution, even though there is no longer anyone to give the answer. The AC carefully formulates a program, and then begins the process of reversing Chaos. It collects cold, interstellar gas, brings together the dead stars, until a gigantic ball is created. Then, when labors are done, from hyperspace the AC thunders:
LET THERE BE LIGHT !
And there was light -- And on the seventh day, He rested...

Excerpt from the book Hyperspace, by Michio Kaku

Keep in mind that science is a process, not a collection of facts. Though the facts/models of reality accumulated through science may not be able to explain some things right now, as man's understanding of the world around him increases, many things which were regarded as in the realm of the "spiritual" will have corresponding scientific models to describe those phenomena and maybe even practical applications based on those models.

Why should things that were once regarded as part of the spiritual realm be regarded as things 'explainable' by science, while things that are today still considered part of the 'spiritual' realm considered 'unexplainabe'? Do you believe that science can progress no further?

There were times in history when diseases were considered to be the work of the devil or evil spirits. People back then believed that evil spirits were the only explanation, and they could not have predicted that someday, people would be able to see germs through microscopes and electron microscopes, that they would be able to heal and prevent diseases not based on the spirit world, but based on science. Why should other things be inherently out of the reach of science?

It sounds like you are saying that god came down from heaven to personally remove her cataract.

Maybe religions would get more converts if they stopped insulting their potential customers like that. This sort of pity insinuates that it is somehow 'natural' for people to be christian, and that there is something wrong with people who aren't (which some people undoubtedly believe). What makes christianity or other monotheistic religions better than atheism and philosophies without inherent deities(such as Buddhism and philosophical Taoism)?

I think it would be a better question where religion comes from.
There must be a good answer based on human evolution. Religion is such a strong force, and it has so different faces...
What is the adaptive problem that religion is designed to solve? Does it guard us from psychosis? Well, it actually does. You can keep your sanity in mortal danger if you can turn to religion. But somehow this will not explain it all. Maybe the entire process is just so long that the scale of it escapes the human mind's understanding.
After religion is in place it is obviously a good tool for oppression and exploitation. So it stays in place and various forms can pop up, depending on the needs of whoever sets the rules.

Good point.