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God matters
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54
 pocksuck...
5 months ago
« zebulor : Can nothing exist?
Yes, but nature's not keen.
quote #2
43
 maven
5 months ago
« thirdeye : No you don't. How could you? You will be dead. You won't even know you are dead, because you will be dead, and you will know nothing.
Coming from a math guy, I'm surprised at you. Sometimes 'nothing' is the answer.
quote #3
18
 soreen
5 months ago
« maven : Coming from a math guy, I'm surprised at you. Sometimes 'nothing' is the answer.
Sometimes it's more than nothing,

Sometimes it's just infinitely small.
quote #4
31
 chinook
5 months ago
« zebulor:Can nothing exist?
Since nothing is the absence of anything, nothing doesn't really exist, it's just the lack of anything existing.

This reminds me of part of one of my favourite songs:

<a href='http://www.plime.com/redir.p?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcIHFZvBmes&amp;feature=related' class='plime' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'><b>flash video</b></a>



The whole song:
quote #5
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13
 zebulor
5 months ago
« chinook : Since nothing is the absence of anything, nothing doesn't really exist, it's just the lack of anything existing.
But wouldn't there still be space and time in a place where there isn't anything? Then there would be something there, just not matter.


If there was a god before the universe was created, then there was something, so god was the universe before he made the features that characterize the universe today. But then god did not create the universe, since by his existence, he was the universe, so whoever made god made the universe. But then whoever made god was the universe before god came around...
quote #6
31
 chinook
5 months ago
« zebulor : But wouldn't there still be space and time in a place where there isn't anything? Then there would be something there, just not matter.
Well, even light travelling through the vacuum of space counts as something. Maybe absolute nothing exists beyond the edges of the universe. Maybe there are other universes, but what is beyond them? Infinity universes, or infinite nothing?

If there was a god before the universe was created, then there was something, so god was the universe before he made the features that characterize the universe today. But then god did not create the universe, since by his existence, he was the universe, so whoever made god made the universe. But then whoever made god was the universe before god came around...
But what if there was no god? Maybe absolute nothing existed before the singularity. What created the singularity? Was it just always?

My mind is spinning. I like this feeling.
quote #7
13
 zebulor
5 months ago
« chinook : Well, even light travelling through the vacuum of space counts as something. Maybe absolute nothing exists beyond the edges of the universe. Maybe there are other universes, but what is beyond them? Infinity universes, or infinite nothing?

But what if there was no god? Maybe absolute nothing existed before the singularity. What created the singularity? Was it just always?

My mind is spinning. I like this feeling.
What do the different universes exist in?

I don't think there ever was a nothing. I think that something always was and can never not be, although it can be different from what it once was. I think that the universe wasn't created, because if there was a creator, they would be the universe. And if there wasn't a creator, how would something arise from nothing (of course, since I don't believe in nothing anyway)?

Maybe humans just aren't equipped mentally to handle nothing. But confusing discourse about nothing is possible, and that sure is something.
quote #8
54
 pocksuck...
5 months ago
« zebulor:if there was a creator, they would be the universe.
Could be an issue of semantics but I would take issue there. Before you have a house you have a brick, but the brick isn't the house.

The entirety of existence and the universe aren't the same thing.

But I'll acknowledge that could well be splitting hairs and not at all relevant to the discussion at hand.
quote #9
13
 zebulor
5 months ago
« pocksucket:
The entirety of existence and the universe aren't the same thing.
Isn't that the definition of universe?
A brick might not make a house, but anything (anything) makes a universe.

Technically, there is not 'outside' the universe, because if it is, then it is not outside.
quote #10
54
 pocksuck...
5 months ago
« zebulor : Isn't that the definition of universe?
A brick might not make a house, but anything (anything) makes a universe.

Technically, there is not 'outside' the universe, because if it is, then it is not outside.
It's one definition, but one that predates and is rather negated by quantum mechanics.
quote #11
13
 zebulor
5 months ago
« pocksucket : It's one definition, but one that predates and is rather negated by quantum mechanics.
How is it negated by quantum mechanics?
quote #12
54
 pocksuck...
5 months ago
« zebulor:How is it negated by quantum mechanics?
How long have you got? It's a big old answer you're asking for there.

And how much do you know of quantum mechanics already?

I'm not entirely sure that this thread would benefit from too much of that - could be something of a substantial derailment.
quote #13
37
 suckersk...
5 months ago
« pocksucket:How long have you got? It's a big old answer you're asking for there.

And how much do you know of quantum mechanics already?
Is it even possible to answer your first question without changing the answer to the second one, and vice versa?

Edit - Never mind, as long as you haven't responded to this yet, the answer is both yes and no. That should suffice.
quote #14
13
 zebulor
5 months ago
« pocksucket : How long have you got? It's a big old answer you're asking for there.

And how much do you know of quantum mechanics already?

I'm not entirely sure that this thread would benefit from too much of that - could be something of a substantial derailment.
Is there a link that would explain? What would I need to type into Wikipedia to find out about the parts of quantum mechanics that pertain to this?
quote #15
54
 pocksuck...
5 months ago
« zebulor : Is there a link that would explain? What would I need to type into Wikipedia to find out about the parts of quantum mechanics that pertain to this?
MWI should get you started.
quote #16
13
 zebulor
5 months ago
We could have sidestepped the whole issue and just called the universe the Tao, as it is in truth...

:)
quote #17
38
 hoosker
5 months ago
« zebulor:We could have sidestepped the whole issue and just called the universe the Tao, as it is in truth...

:)
Of course, we would need to know which universe you were referring to...unless that was a typo and you meant "TOE :)
quote #18
38
 hoosker
5 months ago
« suckersklub : Is it even possible to answer your first question without changing the answer to the second one, and vice versa?

Edit - Never mind, as long as you haven't responded to this yet, the answer is both yes and no. That should suffice.
Of course he responded to it already, even before it was asked, his reply existed.

(Now this thread is getting interesting)
quote #19
13
 zebulor
5 months ago
Even if there are multiple universes, if one was to take what I said pertaining to this matter and replace the word 'universe' with the word 'multiverse', then it should still hold up, no?
quote #20
26
 thirdeye
5 months ago
« zebulor:Even if there are multiple universes, if one was to take what I said pertaining to this matter and replace the word 'universe' with the word 'multiverse', then it should still hold up, no?
There can be an other issue here.
There might not be a multiverse.
The set of all universes might not exist.
Just as the set of all cardinalities (numbers) does not exist.
The category of a multiverse will still exist, but this doesn't mean the damn thing exists at all.
quote #21
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