Sorry for my pedantic nature but she actually said that its turtles all the way down.

That's a really good summary of the difference between agnosticism and atheism, something people (myself included) tend to screw up all the time.

As a side note, I see the comparison of the existence with god with the existence of mythological creatures (unicorns etc) as a false parallel. It's much more difficult to prove something FALSE than to prove it true. But there is circumstantial evidence that fairies do not exist - a dead one has never been found and so on and so forth. There can never be similar evidence about god because the concept is so nebulously defined. Whenever god IS defined, it's in such a way that proof of existence is not just difficult, but impossible.

Nah, his avatar made him do it.

*pats*

What are you talking about eh?

My basis for believing in God is my experience with Him. Like I said, you can perceive Him, and you can observe His effects. When I pray, and when I let God work through me, things happen and come together in ways I wouldn't have expected and I end up doing things I never thought I would, and in some cases, I didn't even intend myself (and I don't mean "magic", here). I have developed a relationship with God, I would say, and at this point (keeping in mind that it wasn't like this forever, and that in further working with God, and in observing the kinds of things that God can do in my life and in the lives of those around me, it solidifies my trust in God and my belief in His existence.

How do you account for those that pray and do not see any results? I don't mean pray for things like lottery results but simple things such as a better life or another chance.

I'll be honest here and say that once or twice in my life I have prayed and been sorely disappointed. No more praying for me.

Well, of course praying is not a sure-fire way to get something. It is a way to bring your life closer to the will of God, and as such, is an aspect of one forming a relationship with Him. But when you pray, sometimes you will be disappointed, as your answer may not be what you want (if it is not what God wills for you at that time). It could either be that God doesn't think you need it, or it could be that it is not the right time. Usually, when I get answers on that order, it seems to come with a bit of understanding, but as I trust that God knows what He's doing, I don't fret about it, and realize it's probably for the better. But, in other circumstances, it may be that God actually does answer your prayer with an affirmative, but the answer does not come in the form that you expect or perhaps you aren't open to it. He can give, but we have to be willing to take it as well, and so, perhaps it was there, but you didn't see it. Now, of course, I say this with little knowledge of your particular situation, so I can't go much farther than that. What I just said though, I would say is well outlined in a "parable" I've heard people say before:
I think this well outlines the kind of attitude one must take when praying. Sometimes you have to have an open heart and mind, and not artificially restrict how God is "supposed to" respond to your requests. In my experience, God always follows through, if you ask with a sincere heart and are willing to respond to what God wills no matter what. And it always has turned out for the better, even if it is opposite what I personally desired in my heart.

This is just your interpretation of your personal experiences though right?

When you say "you can perceive him, and you can observe his effects", what that actually means is that you personally interpret circumstances, happenings, situations as being an effect of god.

I don't perceive or observe any effects of any supernatural beings, ever.

Could you give me a specific occurrence of gods effects that you've witnessed to try and help me grasp what it is exactly you're talking about?

I'm never entirely sure how this proves or even illustrates that god answers prayers.

For instance some people attributed the survival of those on board the flight that crash landed into the Hudson river on Jan 15th to divine intervention, that god directed the pilot or in some way intervened.

Yet on Feb 13 a week later in Buffalo, New York a plane crashed killing over 50 people, yet no one comes forward claiming that gods hand was involed in that crash.

I just fail to understand why when good things happen people invoke a god yet they stay remarkable quiet when tragedies happen


This same flawed thinking applies to nature. A creationist will point to sunsets, trees, pretty flowers and say, "Look at this beauty and behold gods hand".

But 'god's hand' produces some tear-jerking, imperfection. Kind of hard to shoehorn a creator into the equation with natural instances of mutation like this.

I guess my point is that the 'evidence' theists present is cherry-picked with a complete disregard for the overwhelming evidence against a caring, loving, perfect, omnipresent, omnipotent being.

No need to apologies to me for pedantry.

Unless you beat me too some pedantic point or other that is.

what do you think of this shirt:

It makes me giggle, but I'd never wear it.

Any religion can be taken to a brutal extreme. Does that mean all of them are so extreme? Or that all practitioners of ANY religion will behave so outrageously.

Tragically the moderate believers serve as a power-base for the extremists and for the barmy religious leaders.

The Mormons aren't considered extremist yet they still try and impose their beliefs on others in a political, legal way and promote homophobic prejudice.

That t-shirt is a generalisation based on a single devastating incident. Yet the core point, IMO, still holds true, that religion does more harm than good.

That same core point also reflects the opposite end of the spectrum, if you boil it down, without science, modern warfare is an impossibility.

Without science, every war would just be people throwing rocks at each other until everybody gets bored and goes home.

Yeh but they'd probably still be throwing stones at each other in the name of god

if it wasn't hurling rocks in the name of God it'd be something equally foolish.

Human society arranges itself around "Us vs. Them." Me vs. you, my family vs. your family, my neighborhood vs. your neighborhood, my city vs. yours, my state vs. yours, my country, my sect, my god, versus yours.

God happens to be the easiest scapegoat, as he's got a horrible track record of never speaking for himself and never, ever, ever setting the record straight.

Most of the time, what's attributed to DEUS LO VOLT is actually more often about land, money and power.

It's just that it's really easy to get people to fight, kill and die for you, thousands of miles away from home, if you tell them it's what God wants.

Now that in and of itself, that's not God's fault. In the name of God, yes, but it was the hand of man, using religion as a tool to move the peasants onwards towards obliteration.

What we clearly need to do is wipe out mankind, then this s**t won't ever happen again.

It is interesting to me that you you often talk about personal interpretation and experiences. I think that is what you are basing your picture of God (or lack thereof) on. God is not something that fall under the scope of just my interpretation or experience. I see Him in the experiences of others, and the world around me. If I just worked off of my own experience, I would still believe in Him...mainly because He has saved my life so many times that I think to call "coincidence" would be unfair. I have lived a rough life, it hasn't been easy. Yet I believe in Him. I have met others whose lives have made mine look like a life of ease, and they also believe in God. I don't think it is right to say it is a matter of their interpretation.
I have also met millionaires who have an easy life who believe in God. So it is not just for the downtrodden.
God exists, in a scope beyond my experience or interpretation. Whether you choose to believe in Him or not...He will still exist.

Wow, you must be quite a special guy because daily your god allows hundreds of thousands of people to be murdered, starve to death and die of disease but he's saved your life many times? You're a lucky guy

So basically, god exists, end of conversation?

Ok, I was hoping for something more but there ya go...

In that case I'll just end on no gods exist whether you want believe they do or not.

There, I'm right

Him??

Why him? Why not Her??

Since there is no real evidence of gender perhaps the proper term believers should use would be...It.