Waitress says bare face led to firing : RSS 2.0http://www.plime.com/en-usplime.com2009, plime.com.Plime/1http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rssWaitress says bare face led to firing : RSS 2.0http://www.plime.com/images/logo.gifhttp://www.plime.com/<![CDATA[Waitress says bare face led to firing]]>
But Vild, a waitress, says her former boss had an entirely different opinion.

He wanted Vild to wear makeup.

She wouldn't.

So, she says, she got canned.]]>http://www.plime.com/plime-com/l/116775/1/http://www.plime.com/plime-com/l/116775/1/plime.com
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<![CDATA[restlesschicken @ 5/26/2009 4:15:44 PM]]>« DerAlt : 
You don't have the legal right to accept a job then refuse to conform to the job requirements. That's the real issue here.the makeup requirement wasn't in effect when she was hired. it went into effect five years after she was hired, when new management took over. who'd to know what the job requirements will be several years after getting hired?]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q25http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q25plime.com <![CDATA[DerAlt @ 5/26/2009 12:53:05 PM]]>« Prish:No, women don't usually wear makeup. I, along with many others, do not wear makeup and never have. It's not cool to generalize...it's like saying men normally have moustaches...No big deal here, but I believe you are definitly in the minority in America.

I personally do not like heavy makeup but used moderately it can enhance the most beautiful of women. Most of the women I know and knew used makeup to some degree.

You don't have the legal right to accept a job then refuse to conform to the job requirements. That's the real issue here.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q24http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q24plime.com <![CDATA[boredatwork @ 5/25/2009 1:06:49 PM]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q23http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q23plime.com <![CDATA[chinook @ 5/25/2009 3:52:24 AM]]>« ragingherpes : my fiance looks beautiful and never wears makeup. She looks silly when we have important events that she does wear makeup. I dunno, maybe its just me.No, my bf says the same thing about "face paint" for big events. I think you are part of a large but quiet majority of guys.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q22http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q22plime.com <![CDATA[Prish @ 5/25/2009 2:54:49 AM]]>« DerAlt:Women normally wear makeup, that's not an incredible request. No, women don't usually wear makeup. I, along with many others, do not wear makeup and never have. It's not cool to generalize...it's like saying men normally have moustaches...]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q21http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q21plime.com <![CDATA[LevitateMe @ 5/25/2009 2:23:52 AM]]>« eLJay : If the waitresses must wear make up, fine then so be it. However, the men should have to have their hair cut to military regulations, clean shaven, no piercings, and they must wear ties. I mean if we are going to nitpick here, let's make it equal.The beauty of being a business owner is they make the rules, not you.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q20http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q20plime.com <![CDATA[prettyambitious @ 5/24/2009 11:53:54 PM]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q19http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q19plime.com <![CDATA[ragingherpes @ 5/24/2009 11:18:14 PM]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q18http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q18plime.com <![CDATA[DerAlt @ 5/24/2009 5:39:25 PM]]>« joeyneutrino

That's not a generally defensible principle. After all, surely an employer cannot mandate absolutely anything. Surely a restaurant cannot force one to get body piercings, tattoos, etc, leave marks on the body for indefinite lengths of time. And this isn't a case of, for instance, a failure to wear personal safety equipment in a hazardous environment. Nor is it an example of a simple uniform which can be put on and taken off with no undue long-lasting bodily effects.

Makeup can be a health hazard, in the event of an allergy. Even if she's not allergic now, she can develop one just by using makeup. It can also be simply contrary to her way of life. If she said she was am orthodox Jew or Muslim, would the restaurant be able to hold her to wearing makeup? Piercings? See what I mean? Employers, despite the Supreme Court, cannot plausibly have absolute dominion over these sorts of things. I personally have never worked anywhere that I allowed to dictate such things to me. Contrary to what anyone (and I mean anyone) may say to the contrary, a word environment cannot be considered a totalitarian state. They only get away with such nonsense because people allow them to.

You're aboslutely right in speaking of what your borders are.

However the entire point, as I see it, is does the employer have the right to set guidelines for his employees if they don't violate discrimination laws.

I think employers, who are risking their money, have that right. If someone wants to open a restaurant and call it Totally Blondes he/she should have the right to expect their waiters or waitresses to be either blonde or willing to bleach their hair. It's a job requirement that is not unreasonable. It's not much different that having Burger King employees dress in BK uniforms or expect rock band members to be willing to dress in bling.

You are correct when you speak of your personal choice in being offended by the requirements and refusing to work under the stated conditions. The key here is CHOICE.

However, many others will take it in stride.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q17http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q17plime.com <![CDATA[suebe @ 5/24/2009 4:49:29 PM]]>
You can apply makeup very sparingly and probably get around the requirement. She's cute and doesn't need anything on her skin, probably, so a little eye treatment would have taken a couple of minutes.

Personally, I wear very little makeup myself, rarely foundation.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q16http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q16plime.com <![CDATA[JoshSF49 @ 5/24/2009 4:46:19 PM]]>« lynxears : Correction, it's a double-standard that has been worked into the the cultural norm.

And that is constantly in flux. (ex. Women didn't shave their legs at all until WWII).Well yes. But now it's a cultural expectance.

If I don't want to work at a place that makes me shave, then that's my choice--not theirs.

If she doesn't want to wear makeup at a place that makes their waitresses wear makeup--that's her choice.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q15http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q15plime.com <![CDATA[lynxears @ 5/24/2009 4:43:16 PM]]>« JoshSF49 :  It's not a double standard, it's just a cultural expectance.Correction, it's a double-standard that has been worked into the the cultural norm.

And that is constantly in flux. (ex. Women didn't shave their legs at all until WWII).]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q14http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q14plime.com <![CDATA[JoshSF49 @ 5/24/2009 4:38:53 PM]]>« DerAlt : Women normally wear makeup, that's not an incredible request. Dress rules or cleanshaven rules can be part of the requirements for this kind of job. If you don't want to comply then simply don't take the job.
There are lots of jobs where the management has compiled a set of job requirements, costume wearing, hair style possibly, standard dress etc. You have a choice whether or not to work under the set standards in these particular jobs.

I don't know if big boobs is a Hooters requirement but certainly a willingness to wear a tight T shirt is. Considering what image management wanted to create, that is not an unreasonable request.

If I were risking money to start a business I would want to set standards that I consider necessary to complete the business model I have in mind. All within the legal guidelines covering
employment of course.While I have to say that I generally do disagree with you, I find you absolutely spot on. Maybe we *can* find some areas where we agree :)

That being said, it is not unreasonable at all to ask a waitress to wear makeup...there are even makeup companies that do not inject chemicals into your face (bareMinerals). Women are generally expected to wear makeup.

I work in a restaurant. Mine does not care much if the women wear makeup. However, makeup does make the women look more fresh and well-rested. It's about making yourself look like you put effort into your appearance. I've been told a few times that I need to shave (it's rare since I grow facial hair at the speed of a slug). Men and women have different standards of appearance. Culturally, women shaving their legs is expected, but not for men. Men are expected to wear pants, whereas women may wear skirts and high heels. It's not a double standard, it's just a cultural expectance.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q13http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q13plime.com <![CDATA[joeyneutrino @ 5/24/2009 4:38:32 PM]]>« DoggySpew:Before 2many (Unless I'm completely wrong about what I think 2many would say) comes here and says the same thing: If a company is saying what to wear, you must wear it. This goes for clothing, tattoos, piercings whatever. It is called company policy. What they can't determin is who you are. They are not allowed to say you must be white, black, woman, disabled, unless there is a plausible explanation for that requirement. But what you wear, is pretty much no holds barred That's not a generally defensible principle. After all, surely an employer cannot mandate absolutely anything. Surely a restaurant cannot force one to get body piercings, tattoos, etc, leave marks on the body for indefinite lengths of time. And this isn't a case of, for instance, a failure to wear personal safety equipment in a hazardous environment. Nor is it an example of a simple uniform which can be put on and taken off with no undue long-lasting bodily effects.

Makeup can be a health hazard, in the event of an allergy. Even if she's not allergic now, she can develop one just by using makeup. It can also be simply contrary to her way of life. If she said she was am orthodox Jew or Muslim, would the restaurant be able to hold her to wearing makeup? Piercings? See what I mean? Employers, despite the Supreme Court, cannot plausibly have absolute dominion over these sorts of things. I personally have never worked anywhere that I allowed to dictate such things to me. Contrary to what anyone (and I mean anyone) may say to the contrary, a word environment cannot be considered a totalitarian state. They only get away with such nonsense because people allow them to.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q12http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q12plime.com <![CDATA[sykeo56 @ 5/24/2009 4:38:31 PM]]>
As a business owner, your employees are an extension of both you and your business. It is completely reasonable for one to want their employees in line with their principles and plans for their business.

I, for one, find his reasoning to be extremely shallow and personally disagree with it. I do, however, respect his decision.

Do you think a morbidly obese woman is going to be offered a waitress position at Hooters? Probably not. Unfortunately for the morbidly obese woman, that's just how Hooters does business.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q11http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q11plime.com <![CDATA[eLJay @ 5/24/2009 3:45:53 PM]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q10http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q10plime.com <![CDATA[DerAlt @ 5/24/2009 2:51:43 PM]]>« restlesschicken:yes, but i think the issue here was that the waitress went without makeup for a good while, before suddenly it becoming an issue. granted, it happened with new management, who probably changed the dress code.

i think the issue is more of the double standard-ness of the situation ... only women are expected to 'go the extra mile' that makeup grants, wereas men just shave - not similar at all.

and with your hooters example, deralt ... i'm sure women won't get hired at all if they don't have big boobs. i'm sure that's hooters' guidelines, so does that not make it also discrimination, or is it not discrimination because it's in the guidelines?Women normally wear makeup, that's not an incredible request. Dress rules or cleanshaven rules can be part of the requirements for this kind of job. If you don't want to comply then simply don't take the job.
There are lots of jobs where the management has compiled a set of job requirements, costume wearing, hair style possibly, standard dress etc. You have a choice whether or not to work under the set standards in these particular jobs.

I don't know if big boobs is a Hooters requirement but certainly a willingness to wear a tight T shirt is. Considering what image management wanted to create, that is not an unreasonable request.

If I were risking money to start a business I would want to set standards that I consider necessary to complete the business model I have in mind. All within the legal guidelines covering
employment of course.]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q9http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q9plime.com <![CDATA[restlesschicken @ 5/24/2009 2:39:25 PM]]>« DerAlt : 
Wouldn't it be understandable to fire a Hooters waitress that insists on wearing slacks and a baggy T shirt?yes, but i think the issue here was that the waitress went without makeup for a good while, before suddenly it becoming an issue. granted, it happened with new management, who probably changed the dress code.

i think the issue is more of the double standard-ness of the situation ... only women are expected to 'go the extra mile' that makeup grants, wereas men just shave - not similar at all.

and with your hooters example, deralt ... i'm sure women won't get hired at all if they don't have big boobs. i'm sure that's hooters' guidelines, so does that not make it also discrimination, or is it not discrimination because it's in the guidelines?]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q8http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q8plime.com <![CDATA[DerAlt @ 5/24/2009 1:39:22 PM]]>
I would think the owner of a sevice business that requires customer contact would have the right to create rules like this.

Wouldn't it be understandable to fire a Hooters waitress that insists on wearing slacks and a baggy T shirt?]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q7http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q7plime.com <![CDATA[restlesschicken @ 5/24/2009 1:22:16 PM]]>
if the waitress' reason for not makeup had been for her comfort and health, instead of personal preference, would the new employer still had the right to fire her over what she couldn't do, instead of what she won't do?]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q6http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q6plime.com <![CDATA[gammerus @ 5/24/2009 1:11:41 PM]]>
Click here to show image
]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q5http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q5plime.com <![CDATA[DoggySpew @ 5/24/2009 1:01:57 PM]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q4http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q4plime.com <![CDATA[IcePigs @ 5/24/2009 12:35:06 PM]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q3http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q3plime.com <![CDATA[KerOBeroS32 @ 5/24/2009 12:13:38 PM]]>
Edit to add: I don't wear make-up either...]]>http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q2http://www.plime.com/l/116775/1/rss2_0.rss#q2plime.com