My great grandmother, who lived in the early 1900s, worked. And by worked I mean she owned a chicken farm and managed it herself. She built the barn (which was no small feat). She held public office in her community. She owned a real estate business. She did housework, yardwork, and did all sorts of construction (my mom likes to tell the story of when my grandmother found her on the roof, 2 stories up, repairing it, and yelled at her worried she'd fall off).

I'd say, while women's rights was important, the opportunity was there already. I think that most women just did not want to break from the norm of the time. She did not have difficulty doing what she did. What we have now is that women *are* equal. But it seems to me that people won't be satisfied until women are on top, sort of the reverse of what was typical long long ago.

Have you ever had a woman on top? ;)

Women still disproportionally do the housework and childrearing. Women are still expected to take a husband's name (and it's difficult for men to take a woman's name). Birth control often isn't covered by health insurance, but viagra is. Women still make only 80 cents to every man's dollar. Women are underpromoted in business. Women are still afraid to walk alone at night.

Heck, the gay girl was thrown out of the yearbook for wearing a suit!

...Aren't those things we can (and should) change?

I'm sorry, I know I said I was done but I just noticed this.

Lynx, by saying that you are saying it is the woman's fault she gets assaulted, because she has a vagina.
I see you putting none of the blame on the man that assaults her.

That surely can't be what you meant, can it?


(A gay guy would have been thrown out for wearing a dress too)

Err... Coming from an MtF, I can say with all certainty that that will not be happening anytime soon.

However, it's generally a bad idea to make a strawman out of your opponents arguments.

I have not heard of any man forcing their wife (outside of rare circumstances) to do the housework and childrearing. We've seen an increase in paternity leave. What does that say about our society, do you think?

Birth control, I am not in the insurance business, but as my doctor said, health insurance is like paying someone to punch you in the face. It's a broken system, and that's only one of the issues perceptibly afflicting it. Besides, impotence is a medical condition. If you are healthy and you can properly get it up, you won't need that medication.

If it is proven that a woman is getting 80 cents to a man's dollar simply because she's a woman, then that would violate already in place anti-discrimination laws, and that could be brought to court. Women are recognized as equal already. That a few are bigots is going to happen. We still have white supremacists.

The person that gave the commencement speech when I graduated was Ursula Burns.

I'm afraid to walk alone at night (in certain areas of the city). Someone who wants money for drugs will attack anyone. Some may chose to attack a woman because of perceived weakness but since when did someone who would knife a person in an ally define the general American public's perception of women? What's more common is empowerment of women to defend themselves, along with men. In fact, I know several women from my martial arts classes who very well could beat me to a pulp. :P

I'm sure a man couldn't wear a dress. And it wasn't simply her wearing a suit. She was clearly cross-dressing, to the point where she did look like a man. Even people who consider men and women equal can be irked by that. There is something fundamental that puts people off about crossdressing. Men wearing lingerie and women's clothing, in fact, gets much more ire than a woman wearing men's clothing.


I think things should change, but we should not overreact with emotion. Sometimes gender is involved, but just because it's involved, it doesn't automatically mean it's bad gender discrimination or the male asserting superiority over the female.

It was a general observation, not directed at her in particular. But it's an honest assessment. I believe that some of this, even subconsciously, is the reason behind it. I know that similar things can happen in other situations. If you feel you were wronged, or that you are being unfairly suppressed, your attempt to remedy it may end up going too far. This is when the pendulum may swing too far in the other direction, where you are trying to compensate so much that you find yourself in the same situation but with the roles reversed. But most of the time you won't realize it if you're the one who is in favor, because you're happy and you don't have any reason to question that. It's basic psychology.

(Agreed... and all else being equal, what does it matter what they choose to wear in a picture? Is it worth exclusion? I don't think so)

And I'm saying the assault part that way because the man doing the assaulting thinks it's ok...because she's a woman. That doesn't make it her fault at all... it's still and always is the fault of the abuser.

Did I say it was forced? No, it's a societal standard. It's more subtle than "you do housework!" It's just an expectation. And it's carried out in statistics.
(though, perusing the ads, I have seen men say they want a wife to clean up, tidy house, etc, so that exists too)

I'm all for an increase in paternity leave! I think it's great! I think that's a great sign...

So the prevention of unwanted pregnancy doesn't warrant medical attention?

You are just reinforcing my point about it being unequal.

Equal under the law isn't the same as equal in practice.
Should pro-black rights organizations go away because there are only "some" white supremacists?
Are you afraid you'll be raped? ...Probably not. So add that fear to the fear of being knifed you already feel. And apply it in even "safe" parts of the city.

So? Does it hurt anything at all? If things were truly equal, this would be ok, too.

Sure..gender is sometimes involved. Like in the instances in this list. Glad we agree!


Sid, are you "afraid" blacks will want to enslave whites, too? That would be an equalivalent argument...but we aren't enslaved.

I have no desire for male slaves/subservients. I want male equals.

As a note, just because you're for women's rights doesn't mean you're against men's rights.

Just because I think that there's a lot of improvement to be made before women can be considered equal in our culture (further note: Culture=/=Law), doesn't mean I don't think there are some things that need to be improved for men as well.

Pregnancy isn't a medical affliction. It's not a valid comparison. Now if the birth control pills were used for hormonal regulation in the case that the woman has imbalanced hormones, then I would be for having insurance companies pay. However, for just over the counter use, it's not the same thing.



They shouldn't but their efforts should be properly directed, and not towards claiming that everyone is racist. You are telling me, in this link, that gender discrimination is cultural and that I am doing it myself. This is not the case.

How many women do you see prowling the street looking to rape men? Why do you think primarily men do it? You do know that male rape is a vastly underreported crime yet it exists and is very real. In fact, the main reason that it *is* underreported is because if a man came out that he was raped, he *would* be ridiculed or be laughed off. At least women can bring it to court and be taken seriously. Though, I think that even then, it's sometimes blind acceptance. Proving a rape is tricky enough that many places simply will take the woman's word over the man's. And that creates a dangerous situation where a woman who wants to manipulate a man or be vindictive can claim rape where it was consensual or nothing happened at all and he can still be convicted and punished. That is absolutely unfair and immoral. I find it personally disgusting.


I believe that she should have been allowed. However, that she was not speaks more to the individual who forbid her from the yearbook more than society at large. I simply do not see the problem as pervasive as you seem to.


I addressed this above. And I believe that most males you will meet will consider you an equal. I would.

I don't want to bring race issue as that is a whole different topic (regarding historicity and public perception). I also addressed it elsewhere in another thread, I believe, and that *was* essay-length. :p

Chez wins the argument.
>.>

I apologize for not reading this entire discussion before I jump in, but I am led to believe that a few thirty comments are about the history, and not today.

Do you feel, personally, that an assaulter really does feel that his action is okay? Do you think, if you do think so, that any assaulter would find it okay to assault a woman, and not a man? And to follow...

There is a double reason in wanting to have sex and avoiding pregnancy. If one requires a medicine to have an erection, which many do, they may possibly want to have a child. If one requires a medicine to avoid having a child, I'm going to guess that they don't want to have child. I can see reason that giving viagra would be more helpful to responsible situation than is giving birth control to a man or womyn in their 20s, 30s, etc.

Do you feel like those fears stack? And why do you feel that you can not get knifed in the "safe" parts of the city where rape is a possibility?

That brought to mind an interesting statistic that I forgot about...

Statistically, most rape victims were raped by a man that they had a close relationship with, be it a friend or a family member, and not some random Joe off the street.

I agree with you entirely in that women's rights do need to equalize, but while that is going to be a gradual change, it is probably happening faster than you think. I am from a standpoint of high school, in 3 AP courses where I would guess the classes are 90% female. I am applying to colleges where you are at a severe disadvantage for not being female.

Trust me, you've seen what my generation has brought to the table so far when it comes to equality- we are trying our best.

Pfft! Tell that to the ob/gyns who make their living off of pregnancy-related issues.

Birth control pills are not over the counter..
but I was put on BC for the very reason you mention! And I paid the cost (minus $5) myself. If you were to get viagra (it's not unheard of for young men to get it for kicks) ...it would be covered.

Right, you've never ever discriminated against a woman, nor stood back while a man or woman was discriminated against (even in subtle ways) because of his/her gender.
Absolutely./sarcasm

Power. It's a crime of power.

We both agree that rape of men exists (though it's often done by other men) and that it is bad that men can't report it. So that's on the list of things that we can change!
Also, I agree, false rape claims are horrible. I don't think the people who make such claims realize how despicable it is even. I agree, punish the liars... but does that justify the real rapes that aren't reported?

How many individual stories does it take to show that it is a societal problem?

Good. If we were on a date, would you insist on paying, or would you let me pay if I wished?

Do you see the point, though?

Reminds me of my college...

There's a Women in Engineering group that's there to promote women in engineering degrees. Sure, it's nice to get them to think about doing that, though I think that the reason is more to do with the fact that women just don't want to go into engineering. The ones that do are not typical of most women (and I know several). The fact is, they can and do choose whatever degree they want to do. For whatever reason (and I'm going to say that it's probably more natural inclinations rather than cultural) that women most likely do not go into such courses.

On top of that, there never was a similar supporting group or even scholarship (while the women got several) for men going into technological paths. I remember trying to find a computer programming summer program for myself locally when I was in highschool, but all that was offered no matter where I looked was things for women.

Welcome to the dogpile!

I know that those who assault women, particularly in domestic and sexual assault situations, do not attack men at nearly the same rate they attack women.
And I think that if we could really figure out what makes an attacker an attacker, we could fix a lot of problems. But in the moment...if they thought it wasn't ok, would they do it?

What if you don't want a child, you just want to be like Smilin' Bob and have sex? That's what women on birth control want (well...not like Smilin' Bob exactly)...

How does not giving birth control increase responsibility? It increases the chances of an unwanted child, which has it's own issues of responsibility and medical consequences.

I don't know Sid's city. If he says there are safe places from being knifed, I'll take his word for it.
Rape is more likely to be committed by someone trusted, which is why, for me at least, it is a more atrocious crime than one committed by strangers.
But the *fear* of rape is held by a society, and has more to do with society than with actual stats. And has a lot to do with gender.

You better watch out for Pennsylvania's class of 2010, buddy. As I mentioned before, I am in classes of 90% women. So, I am inclined to be good friends with those people, along with the few guys that I've been good friends with for a long time. If I knew you personally, I could name you about 30 women that are interested in going into specific engineering, while I can only tell you of about 10 that are either interested in neuroscience or medicine. The other dozens I'm not so positive about.

That's a personal attack and unfounded. Please do not resort to ad hominem attacks.


What prevents a woman from wanting power or perpetrating a crime of power?

I never said it justified it. I'm just saying things are biased towards the woman here.


Individual stories are just that, and are called anecdotal evidence. It's never indicative of an overarching problem. If you have a problem with the individual (or a group of individuals) then by all means, try and influence them. But saying that I'm that way because he's that way is a jump in logic that simply does not compute.


If I was hosting you, then yes, I would. If you were hosting me, then I would think that you probably would. But if it was just a mutual date, then I would probably ask what you wanted to do and discuss it. It's just being considerate. Just like holding open doors. It's putting the other ahead of yourself.

In that case, it's a personal perception problem, and not something I have control over. I know my opinion and views, and you know yours. The solution here is to make people realize the facts, rather than giving into irrational fear.