You admit there is a problem then, though?

Because that's kind of what I've been saying.

There a is problem. It needs to be fixed.

Or for men to stop raping. Also a solution.

*edit* This comment has to do with sid's about science. But Plime wouldn't let it go through as a quote, so my answer just follows.*

Here's the problem with this whole comment: What makes you think it's "natural" instead of cultural? It's incredibly difficult to figure out the cultural/genetic implications...but we can change culture.
Women were thought to be incapable of a lot of careers...but they are doing them today. It was cultural.

Studies have shown that girls are pushed away from sciences and math in school. THAT is why such programs exist.

You just said that you probably won't get raped walking on the street, but that you perceive that you will. Those are two different things.

Men should stop raping. So should women. Rapes are a horrible act. But that doesn't mean you should fear something that statistically is improbable.

I'm not going to try and get anything in edgewise except this:

What's wrong with aspiring to being a secretary? Why the insulting attitude toward them? So what if a woman wants that?

In my experience, a good secretary is THE reason why business actually gets done. Give me a good secretary over 50 managers any day of the week.

When paying the bill becomes an issue, it's where I have my problems. You're right in suggesting that chivalry is discrimination. Any act of kindness can be analyzed into a person doing a smug act of righteousness onto another person that they think need the help. When you say that it is discriminatory to open the door for a female, but not to a male, you are right. But that's not society's effect, that's just simply attraction to help others of the opposite sex. Before it was even common knowledge as to why one human being's dangly bits looked different from another, we have acted differently. Birds, fish, bears, magnets, they act differently when in the presence of another sex. Scientists do not know why exactly this happens, but we have been spraying a lot of pheromones on a lot of things to find out why. Bottom line is that I do not believe that you will ever see 100% equality in the way a male will treat a female and vice versa.

We on Plime are not the jerks that go around hooting at women, but if you are trying to be a pleasant person, it should not be suppressed as discrimination. We know you can get your own door, and we know you can pay the bill, but if you want to get your own door and pay your own bill, just say so, and do not be upset in assuming that men will be nice to you if those situations are to occur. I know that at least I do nice things because I want to be nice, not because I have a superiority complex. I'm sure that if I took a piece of cabbage out to dinner, I would pay the bill too.

I think you're just responding because you think that by posting this article, I'm attacking men, and, being a man, attacking you.
I cannot see how you could b part of a system without being...a part of the system. By society, I also include myself...though I work hard to counter those things when I can.

Nothing. There are women rapists. Just fewer.

Anecdotes are *never* indicative of an overarching problem? Fine; the stats will back me up then. (see article for some)

AH! But Bingo and TM want you to hold the door for them all the time, as a privilege they feel women deserve.

I'll hold the door open for anyone... but I don't expect it to be held for me because I've got ladyparts.

From my observation of what girls have, in general, gravitated towards in interest (and I've been around several), it seems to be more often than not something other than technology and engineering, specifically. I can easily imagine women in scientific fields, so I'm not referring to that. There are several that I know personally.

I also never bought that men were favored. In my experience, it was *always* the girls in class that got the best grades, no matter what class it was. Maybe my classes were full of lazy boys, but my experience, and so my learned bias, admittedly, is that women are better at being learned and better workers. But I know that is only a perception and not indicative of reality. I just had a poor sample size when I was building my views.

I make a real effort to split checks and open doors.

But often times men will stop, refuse to walk through the door until I give it up, and then hold it for me. What's the benefit in that? Everyone is slowed down by a silly tradition.

So there is discrimination there.

Hold doors, by all means.

I do not see what you see, for obvious reasons. What I see in my own life is that males and females are unequal in ways, but there is no better team. The balance is trying to be found, just like every form of discrimination is trying to find balance. In my own personal life, I do not live in the city, I do not need viagra and I am not on the job market- I am trying to get into college. In this view, I, as a male, am at a disadvantage.

Nothing is wrong with aspiring towards secretaridom. ..But there is something wrong with only being allowed to be a secretary, or only encouraged to be such.

Alright...I'm going to bed. Since I seem to be the only person vocally supporting any of this right now, my arguments are going to bed, too.

If you have any thoughts you'd like to follow up on with me, you know where to PM me.

Thank you all for at least considering my opinions, and for a... interesting...conversation.

They, from my understanding, are complaining that while some things were gained, many things were lost in the rise of the attitude that these things were chauvinistic. As a male in society, there is a perception that we pick up on that by preferring women or doing things like putting your coat over a puddle or holding an umbrella over a woman stranger you are walking by in the rain, that by just these simple acts of kindness, you are assuming that they are weaker than you and that they need protection. Sometimes it's just being nice and being respectful. I know from experience that this can nag at you even if you aren't really a chauvinist. In fact, as you did mention race, white people in general also have the same issue, when it comes to black people. As a white male, I have both of these issues and as such could understandably get very paranoid about being labelled as either simply by recognizing race, or being nice to a woman.

I try not to let things like that affect me, but it's still there, and it sucks that we have to deal with this. I think, though, that there's better ways to come about a solution and more healthy cohabitation in this world than by accusing people or by connecting dots on completely different images.

You should understand, though, that even today, a blue collar job for males is usually outdoors doing physical labor, while the ones for females is indoors. Women were encouraged to be secretaries and leave the "stupid" jobs for the men, but men were encouraged to be factory workers and leave all the "easy" jobs for the women. So while women were encouraged to be secretaries, men were discouraged.

Unfortunately, as much as you and I would want it to stop entirely, nothing anyone could do would stop it from ever happening again.
I think he responded because that part of the comment was rude on your part, and quite unnecessary.

YES. Any man who wants to be a secretary is OBVIOUSLY gay.

I SAID NO SUCH THING!!

Do not put words in my mouth to make it fit your argument!

You have twisted around a lot of things people have said. If you can not debate fairly, then maybe you shouldn't at all.

In any job I have ever held, I make the same rate of pay as anyone sporting a pair of testicles.

I know people in many walks of life and thanks to the unions, EVERYONE is treated equally! (except for personal experience below)

But even crap jobs in the paper advertise pay as 9.00 an hr and it does not say "Females will work for slightly less".

I am not mad, like Bingo.

I am just as perplexed as she is. It seems you are mad, and yes, your comments are quite snotty at times.

True story. At 911 before I got there WOMEN were head of the union in our dept. They wanted to be ELITE.

They wanted a new person coming in to make a top rate of 15.79 an hr and never EVER make it into the top rate of pay THEY make of 19.00 an hr.

And they made it so in the contract.

New men and WOMEN (raises hand) were hired and we topped out at the 15.79 rate EVEN THOUGH we had the same job, same risks, same duties.

I worked at that rate for 2 yrs and was robbed of about 14,000.

A woman was elected to be our president. She said we should all get the same rate of pay for doing the same job.

It was made so. And not because she is a woman, but because she brought the facts to the union and it was deemed unfair.

Inequality happens.

And your comments about how rape and abuse happen to men, just "not as much" as women does not negate the fact that it happens at all. There are pretty big numbers on that too. It does not make women being abused more important.

Abuse is abuse. Period.

Wow, you encounter some crappy men ;)

I am perfectly cool with guys opening doors for me, and I thank them everytime (even tho my bf does it everytime) and I try to open doors as well. I've never had a guy act insulted when I held a door open, they usually act polite about it.

I may be all for equality, but some old fashioned things are nice. I love how my bf is still chivilrous. He still walks outside (near traffic) he still opens doors and gives up his seat on the bus for many women/elderly/infants

You can have equality and still be polite.