From what I gather, the system they are proposing right now isn't really teh same as theirs.

I'm reading the Liverpool care Pathway as we speak and if senior Doctors are putting people on the pathway who shouldn't be on it then the mistake is theirs and not a mistake in the Pathway.

There is no way that a patient can be placed on the pathway without falling into set criteria and even if they were wrongly diagnosed the plan of the Care Pathway requires constant re-assessment.


Also patients should not be admitted to the pathway without the consent of the family so that story is bulls**t.


(Not saying anything bad about your post 2many but more questioning the statements in the articles.)

You act like stuff like that doesn't happen in America now.

These kind of stories are every where, and have always been. There are heartless doctors, or nurses everywhere. There are mistakes made everywhere. People fall through cracks all the time.

This is not an unbiased article at all, but a scare tactic by those apposed to the health care bill.

Would you please explain the "Pathway". I can guess what it is but would rather you tell us to be sure.

Of course it is the fault of the doctors. That is the problem. It allows for human failing to sit back and allow an infant to die because the chance of them surviving isn't worth the time and money it would take to try to keep them alive.

Of course it also needs to be said that for every case like these, 100's, 1000's? leaving them to die in comfort is probably the best.

Still should such a decision be at the overworked doctor instead of the patient?

I imagine that the cost is the primary reason why it isn't. Obviously the government doesn't have infinite amount of money. Should they pay 100's of thousand of pounds for a chance to keep someone alive - perhaps for just a few more days or weeks?

Not an easy decision by any means. It is a question without a real means of answering.

actually is a list of multiple articles showing the problem when what amounts to euthanasia becomes a government policy to balance the checkbook.

It is slightly different when a "heartless doctor or nurse" suggests or even talks a family into allowing their loved one to die and when the government requires that the family allow their loved one to die unless they want to seek out private medical care because the doctor's opinion is that there isn't a good chance of survival.

Sadly, such things are almost inevitable. There isn't an infinite amount of money, time, or medicine to give everyone heroic efforts when the chance of healing them is so infinitesimal.


I am all for health care reform. I just think the way to do it is by increasing the competition among insurers by allowing insurance to be sold across state lines, enacting tort reform so that one can't sue for gazillions of dollars, and lowering the cost of medical care by subsidizing the cost to become a doctor - especially for general practitioners.

Trying to provide government insurance for everyone is way way too costly when the costs to the insurance are not likewise lowered.

Having read through all the links in the original post I have come to the conclusion that it is the Doctors themselves who are at fault.

The Care Pathway has, on the very first page, a question sheet which asks the question: Plan of care discussed and agreed with A: Patient B: Family

Then check boxes for yes/no. If there is a no ticked there then the patient cannot be considered for this type of care and normal routine of patient care must resume.

Once the patient is place on the Pathway they are monitored for any changes to condition every 4 hours. Most patients put on the pathway at Liverpool Royal do not reach the first check.

This approach is designed for people who are dying, not for people who might die at some time in the future if care is taken away but for people who will die anyway and either they want or the family want to let them die with dignity.

Comparisons with this and euthanasia are either exaggerated or the doctors and medical teams who are writing letters to the newspapers about it are not following the correct procedures.

The Liverpool Care Pathway is a form of palliative care given to dying patients. NOT merely patients who have terminal conditions but patients who have begun the process of dying. Basically at the simplest form it is cutting off food, (not to starve people but more when people are in the process of dying the bodies systems begin shutting down and food is no longer digested leading to uncomfortable bloating and stomach cramps.) Restriction of drugs given, drugs which would "make the patient better" are stopped altogether as they would at this stage have no effect. All that is given would be pain relief (usually morphine) and sedatives.

it is amusing that if the above example cases were because of an insurance policy instead of a government policy there would be cries of anger and hatred spewing out.


If this was an article about an insurance company telling a mother they would not treat her prematurely born infant there would be all sorts of anger.

Since this is an article about a government-program that might be compared to ObamaCare that refused to treat her prematurely born infant the reaction is a lot different.

That's not it at all. It's because your article is so biased and slanted that I have trouble with it.
This article is written by a political writer with an anti-Obama agenda. Just look at his other articles.

That is why I linked to the actual articles themselves. I almost didn't post the source article but thought I'd be jumped on for not giving credit

You gave 4 stories (2 are the same person) out of how many that would prove the opposite?

I'm not picking on you 2many, just the article.

Hmmm, I wonder why they're not reporting it in the US media. OR more importantly, why they're not reporting it in the UK?

All the sources, The Daily Telegraph and the the Daily Mail are UK papers.

And for all the good the NHS have done we hear the horror stories every day. I'm currently in a NHS hospital and I come in a lot, and I think the system isn't as flawed or as great as the different sides make out. And I've mostly praise for the service I receive.

But if it was such a big deal then there would be public outcry whereas on the whole I think that people are pretty satisfied with the NHS.

EDIT: RE:the person who was thought to have cancer. I'm pretty sure that everyone makes mistakes the world over. Its a tragedy but not evidence that there is a failing system.

Pretty much my point exactly.

And mine

i do not make much money per hour just enough for me and my wife,who also works,to get by week to week. i am not rich or wealthy by any means, but i am against obama care.. there are some things the government does not to mess with , they take almost 45% of my taxes of what i make each year to pay for bull sh*! as it is including bail-outs for big banks, big auto, pointless wars, and lining their pockets with 200 million dollar pension plans,
i have had enough!!!!!!!!!
i am not gonna pay for some illegal immigrant scum to lazy to go through with our system to become a citizen, or some welfare mom to lazy to get a job besides on her back or some homeless scum to lazy to get out of the bottle to get a job. i have been homeless and i traveled most of North America, i got back on my feet with no welfare and on my own, i have lots of friends from other countries, all came here legally and bettered society in one form or another, most are teachers and doctors whom i went to school with(in college).

i am just tired of the government thinking we work for them, THEY WORK FOR US "WE THE PEOPLE" RING ANY BELLS PEOPLE WAKE THE HELL UP AND TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY, STOP BIG SPENDING, STOP THE POINTLESS WARS, STOP DIVIDING OUR COUNTRY,
WE ARE A REPUBLIC FOR THE PEOPLE THIS IS THE U.S.A., WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY

sorry i had a moment i needed to vent , i am not a democrat or a republican, i am a PATRIOT OF THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA

Just a heads up, this kind of classism is really unnecessary. There are a few former "welfare moms" who visit regularly and they probably wouldn't appreciate being called lazy whores.

I see no problem with giving help when it's needed and not being ashamed to ask for help when it's needed. I believe in helping out others less fortunate than me and hope that they would do the same for me.

"Just a heads up, this kind of classism is really unnecessary. There are a few former "welfare moms" who visit regularly and they probably wouldn't appreciate being called lazy whores."

I DID NOT CALL THEM LAZY WHORES!!!!, YOU DID !!!I ONLY CALLED THEM LAZY
AND ALSO "FORMER" WHICH MEANS THEY ARE NOT ANYMORE
I AM A FIRM BELIEVER IN HAND-UP'S NOT HAND OUTS SO DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH !!!

I KNOW SOME WELFARE MOMS THAT COULD HELP THEMSELVES BUT THEY DON'T THEY RELY ON YOURS AND MY TAX DOLLARS TO SUPPORT THEIR DRUG HABITS AND DRINKING HABITS INSTEAD OF GETTING OUT OF THEIR SITUATION, AND THE FREE CLINICS OFFER FREE CONDOMS AND OTHER VARIOUS FORMS OF BIRTH CONTROL,