« dollyllama : I had a top secret security clearance. That's all I can say about that but if you extrapolate some you might be able to be less surprised at my attitude. I haven't questioned your background. I questioned why you would equate an incorrect battlefield account to a vast conspiracy. I was implying that your military experience would tell you that things constantly get screwed up in war. It doesn't mean there is a master plan of deception behind everything.
Utter bull. Don't make escuses for lies. The government is very good at saying "we're still investigating" they do it all the time. Kevin Tillman was TOLD TO LIE, he just testified to that in a congressional hearing. The eyewitnesses were told to lie. It is one more coverup and to sweep it under the rug again is to give this regime more power.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying... I didn't say the government hasn't put a spin on things or that some have outright lied after the fact. I said that the "initial" reports came out of a chaotic situation and the incorrect information snowballed from there.
Did you read the eyewitness and other participant accounts? They KNEW they were firing on Friends, they KNEW. But worse is the coverup. The lie perpertrated to bolster faith in a war that has no basis. It's despicable.
I've read many of the accounts but I'd be lying if I said I read EVERY account from every source. I'd like to see what sources you are referring to regarding these troops knowingly firing upon friendly forces. I cannot see any reason why they would do that (even if one accepts the wildest conspiracy theories) and I'd like to know where you are getting that information.
It's a terrible tragedy, I won't make light of that but you're missing the point. IT'S THE COVERUP AFTER THE FACT.
I haven't missed anything, I'm just not convinced tha the scope of deception is as far reaching as you suggest it is. And NO, I do not accept everything that comes out of official military or government sources. By the same respect, I don't believe everything I read in news papers or hear from angry or emotional people. I DO believe in facts. If those "facts" prove me wrong, I change my opinion accordingly.
That lowest guy always gets the blame, eh? It can't ever be that the government was lying again to make this war seem just?
I didn't "blame" anyone... I said that the front line troop is where the story starts and that is where initial accounts were sourced from BEFORE anyone else had a chance to spin it (including the press). There is an equal possibility that he got it right (or wrong).
No. What the government should have done was not get into a war with a country that we had not a direct beef with.
I think a dozen or so violated UN resolutions and a violation of the surrender terms from the first gulf war suggest differently...
They should not have lied and falsified information about yellowcake, about weapons of mass destruction about getting into this for the "people" or whatever today's excuse is for this war.
This same information was available to (and evaluated by) the rest of the world - including those nations who voted unamimously on Resolution 1441. The purpose of that resolution was to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction (Nukes - not yet, other weapons - absolutely). Iraq had already been found guilty of material breach of its obligations, stretching back over 16 previous resolutions and 12 years.
What the government should have done was listen to an entire UNITED NATIONS saying, DON'T DO IT.
That's just not the case... read the resolutions. The only thing they agreed on is that it wouldn't be "them" enforcing their own resolutions. ...such is the impotent U.N.
Au contraire. I do believe all politicians are currupt and have their own agenda.
Then we agree on something! :)
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But you have to see it, and it is insidious sometimes, so you have to be careful and watch and follow and never trust too much.
True enough... and that same skepticism should extend to the agenda driven media and those who claim conspiracies behind every government action. I do not believe everything th egovernment says but I do not think this nation is on the brink of becoming a fascist state (remember... that's what kicked this whole debate off?).
Maybe that makes me paranoid, but it also makes me free. I never totally believe in one party all the time, the rest be damned.
Another point of agreement... I'd like to see a strong 3rd or 4th party to challenge the Republican AND democratic parties.
I don't recall (and I'm sure I didn't) saying that women shouldn't be on the front lines.
You didn't say that and neither did I. I DID say it is a hot button issue for our nation.
On the other hand I met women that could out tough the toughest guy there. In neither case was that every woman or every man, but in actual battle we're talking about mental toughness and the women are certainly equal there.
I never said differently... I retired from 20 years of military service and my wife will soon retire from 23 yeqars of service. I know what women are capable of doing both physically and mentally.
Jessica Lynch was appalled by the fact that there were those who sacrificed their lives to save her and got no recognition. She was appalled that she did nothing much but get caught and rescued and became a poster child for bravery. Maybe that's pure modesty, I don't know I wasn't captured and saved, but she felt they made a hero out of her for no good reason and spun it, making up things that just weren't true. This repulsed her. Who can blame her? It is the lies of our own government that traumatize her, how sad is that?
I can't argue the impact that the misinformation may have had on her but I do have a problem with the way you ascribe a sinister motive behind every government/military action. Do you think just maybe... things are sometimes a matter of individuals (in positions of authority) making poor (stupid) decisions when they become overwhelmed by events?
You want me to cite every instance that this administration has lied, bullied, abused, or corrupted?
not every one of them... just a few proven facts. I'll wait.
Do you only read the "New Republic"? I pointed out the two that were instant. Look at yesterday's news, or the day before or the day before that. There's what 7 years of it now, catch up on your reading
I'm wondering why your examples ONLY extend back 7 years? I read a lot of different things and I don't feel that corruption, stupidity, and folley are limited to the Bush administration. We can cite examples going back to the birth of this nation (many times in which this country was in equally great peril).
I'll wait. (Sorry, I'm being a tad sarcastic...but really, you seem to have missed a lot of what's going on if you need me to cite it all for you).
Sarcasm aside... I haven't missed anything here, I'm trying to focus on what can be addressed in this format and I do not believe you have shown any evidence that we are on the brink of becoming a fascist state. That was after all, the whole point of this post - was it not?? All I'm heraing is a bunch of accusations about lies. Real or not... lies do not equate to fascism.
but acting on your heated emotions is EXACTLY what this article was talking about.
...when it should have been dealing with facts.
If you convince people that Jews are bad and should be exterminated by striking fear into those people about what Jews could do, they are much less likely to fight you or resist, indeed they are more likely to help you, when you start exterminating the Jews. THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM.
I don't see Jews blowing people up all over the world and threatening the downfall of Western civilization (the terrorist words - not mine).
Another part of the problem. Since this nearly exact (except for those who have scurried away or been indicted) administration had the "immediate" information to stop the terrorist acts in the first place.
What factual information are you referring to here?
I waiver on this. I'm afraid to find out which, either way it's doing so much damage. But I don't think Bush is behind a conspiracy if one exists, he just isn't smart enough.
I'm not a huge Bush fan but I think he is smarter than many of you give him credit for. Either way, I'm looking forward to a change.
Volley.
I believe the ball is back in your court now. I would however like to address what was in this article though. When I am proven wrong by the facts, I am more than willing to alter my position on things.
I am asking you to "convince me"]]>