10 Questions That Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer : ATOM 0.3

10 Questions That Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer

It would be entertaining to see some of the answers you theists come up with.

ArchAngel @ 8/10/2007 4:07:27 PM

so would I.
Westboro Baptist Church I took as universally understood to be an extreme case of braindeath.

and no, they aren't of the christian community. They separated themselves from the main christian body long time ago. (they claim their the only "Real" christians and that the rest are on their way to hell) and the mainstream christianity won't associate with them.

Mershaullk @ 8/10/2007 3:21:32 PM

« ArchAngel : Tom Cruise

I have to say that I would choose Tom Cruise over Fred Phelps.

ArchAngel @ 8/10/2007 2:33:14 PM

« Mershaullk : I have yet to figure out what makes Scientology any crazier than any other religion.

Tom Cruise

Mershaullk @ 8/10/2007 2:16:13 PM

« ArchAngel :
do I have a problem with people "witnessing" logic and reason. no. But logic and reason are independent of religion. Christians can be logical. Muslims can be logical. Buddhists, athiests and scientologists can be logical.
wait. no, not scientologists. bad example.

I have yet to figure out what makes Scientology any crazier than any other religion.

ArchAngel @ 8/10/2007 1:50:22 PM

« distantsalem : Well think of it this way. Christians are witnessing their beliefs to other people, right? And they are doing so for the good of those other people, right? Well maybe people who "go out of their way to screw christians" are doing the same thing. Maybe they feel that they are 'witnessing' logic and reason for what they think will be the good of humankind. So how is that not the same thing? Is it because a non-christian cause can't be noble or right? Because that's certainly the message I get from a lot of witnessing christians, and got for the 19 years I myself was christian.

And did you ever consider that maybe the christian idea of heaven doesn't sound appealing to some people? Did you consider that to some, christian ideologies may appear to be utterly wrong? So can you see how a person who is assaulted day after day by these ideologies that they completely disagree with might get a little frustrated--even angry? Surely you can identify with that; your frustration with "those people who go out of their way" is pretty obvious.

I myself am frustrated right now, because about 90% of the time when I start a conversation like this with a christian I will get no reply. I start to wonder why I even waste my time. I mean, if these people really are so secure in their faith then why should they shy away from talking to me?

I'm sorry. I was preoccupied in the other topics.
didn't know you responded. I'm not f5'ing this topic waiting for a reply. you're really not that important.

do I have a problem with people "witnessing" logic and reason. no. But logic and reason are independent of religion. Christians can be logical. Muslims can be logical. Buddhists, athiests and scientologists can be logical.
wait. no, not scientologists. bad example.

but,yes, contrary to popular beliefs, christians can be quite adept at logic.

but if you want to spread the gospel of logic, you do it by actually talking about logic, not by a poor refutation of someone's religion.
First of all, it's a terrible way to go about.
Going off on a tangent to incite hostility rather than a curious mind?
No, I'm pretty sure there are ulterior motives here. Frustration with Christians (yes, I know they are frustrating. I myself argue with them also, but that's a separate issue) being a prominent one.

but, all in all, all the athiests who tried to convert me, well, they really weren't looking out for my good. I became the center for their frustration with christianity. All down to the little smirk on their face after they made some supposed "bullet-proof" argument.

I've never claimed that non-christians can't be noble. I said the people who did this were a*****es. Am I stating that automatically Christians have an altrusitc motive? no. Many christians witness as some mechanism, but I've talked with many do really seem to care. I've yet to hear an athiest talk about wanting to reach out to people without some form of annoyance or even malice in their voice.
Frankly, the ones without the emotional baggage just don't care.

and I'll give you a little tip on life, everybody gets "assaulted day after day" by ideas they disagree with. I wouldn't call it assaulted, more of a diversity of beliefs. but honestly... assaulted? a bit of a loaded term. it's like their raping you with a bible or something.

When a person stops trying to prove I'm an idiot and venting about what not, but rather tries to sit down and talk ration and logic, then yes, I will talk.

Moe @ 8/10/2007 3:28:49 AM

« distantsalem : One more thing. If the answers are sooooo obvious to you, if you are so exasperated by the idiocy of this video, then why did you take the time to make such a lengthy reply. Did you do it because your faith was shaken in some way, or because you unequivocably believe in what you are saying? Or maybe it was a sense of duty?

I know that for my part I took the time because I believe what I'm saying. Can you, in your heart, say the same?

I took the time to reply because at the time, I had not yet seen the video and wanted to actually do as it requested...use logic and reasoning to talk about religion. My sense of "duty" bears no relation to you, or anyone else for that matter. I can absolutely say I took the time because I believe it...your opinion on my belief is irrelevant. I'll answer some of your points nonetheless.

My answer to #1 has EVERYTHING to do with faith. If God comes down and PROVES His existence, then the free will of man is destroyed. There would be no choice to believe or not. That is why (in my opinion) there are no more "fire and brimstone" type miracles today.

I wasn't saying that I agree with slavery either. What I meant was that references to it as an accepted practice were because it was people living in that time talking to other people living in that time.

And why do I have to either take the Bible as 100% factually literal or 100% metaphorical? There are damn few pieces of literature that are that black and white. Just because you say I have to doesn't mean I really have to. The parables Jesus told were not ever meant to be taken as true stories, simply metaphoric tales to make a point.

I am sorry you feel so frustrated and hostile. If you want, I won't shy away from talking about it in a rational polite manner.

distantsalem @ 8/9/2007 4:15:59 PM

Well think of it this way. Christians are witnessing their beliefs to other people, right? And they are doing so for the good of those other people, right? Well maybe people who "go out of their way to screw christians" are doing the same thing. Maybe they feel that they are 'witnessing' logic and reason for what they think will be the good of humankind. So how is that not the same thing? Is it because a non-christian cause can't be noble or right? Because that's certainly the message I get from a lot of witnessing christians, and got for the 19 years I myself was christian.

And did you ever consider that maybe the christian idea of heaven doesn't sound appealing to some people? Did you consider that to some, christian ideologies may appear to be utterly wrong? So can you see how a person who is assaulted day after day by these ideologies that they completely disagree with might get a little frustrated--even angry? Surely you can identify with that; your frustration with "those people who go out of their way" is pretty obvious.

I myself am frustrated right now, because about 90% of the time when I start a conversation like this with a christian I will get no reply. I start to wonder why I even waste my time. I mean, if these people really are so secure in their faith then why should they shy away from talking to me?

« ArchAngel : it could be the same reason why people b***h and moan about having "religion" shoved on them.

Atleast for a christian, they're/we're trying to get you guys in to heaven. eternal happiness. it could possibly be viewed as altruistic.
They're just being a*****es.
It's angering when someone goes out of their way to screw you.

ArchAngel @ 8/9/2007 2:02:06 PM

it could be the same reason why people b***h and moan about having "religion" shoved on them.

Atleast for a christian, they're/we're trying to get you guys in to heaven. eternal happiness. it could possibly be viewed as altruistic.
They're just being a*****es.
It's angering when someone goes out of their way to screw you.

groovy bastard @ 8/9/2007 1:29:16 PM

« pocksucketVideo

Good to see that something informative is added to this thread.

I don't believe there is a god, but this video was so pretentious, slow, and powerpoint "read aloud everything that appears on the screen" that I couldn't watch past the first question.

pocksucket @ 8/9/2007 5:49:42 AM

« dork : And if the dimensions are there why dont they appear to us?

This may help there...

distantsalem @ 8/9/2007 5:09:16 AM

One more thing. If the answers are sooooo obvious to you, if you are so exasperated by the idiocy of this video, then why did you take the time to make such a lengthy reply. Did you do it because your faith was shaken in some way, or because you unequivocably believe in what you are saying? Or maybe it was a sense of duty?

I know that for my part I took the time because I believe what I'm saying. Can you, in your heart, say the same?

distantsalem @ 8/9/2007 4:59:52 AM

« Moe : Sigh...another attempt to convince my faith away...

OK I am genuinely going to do this live. I have not seen the entire video yet, just question #1. I will honestly do my best to post answers as I get the questions in real time.

CRUCIAL NOTE: I DO NOT CLAIM ALL KNOWLEDGE AND ANSWERS!!! THIS IS MY TAKE ON REALITY ONLY!!!

ALSO I FOLLOW THE CHRISTIAN PATH, YOUR INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAY MAY BE WILDLY DIFFERENT!!!

PROCEED WITH CAUTION AND COMMON SENSE!!!

1. The entire concept of Christianity is faith in God. If God healed an amputee, there would be NO FAITH. It would be proven. The entire deal is what you do with your FREE WILL. What is the point of arguing if there is a God if someone gives you his bleeding phone number? Proof is useless.

2. Once again, the answer is God's gift of free will to all people. What we do is up to us entirely. If we choose to help others, great. It is true that people suffer needlessly. But that is not God's doing. It is up to us to choose to help others.

3. God does not condemn these people to death simply because they worked on the wrong day. It was because of our disobedience to His will that separated us from Him and made us subject to His wrath. It may seem silly to condemn people for that fact, but we are not making the rules here. Also, those verses are from the Old Testament. In the New Testament all that has changed.

4. Who the hell is this guy that he KNOWS FOR ALL FACT that what the Bible says is nonsense?!?! I have read a documented case of a sailor being trapped in a whale's belly for several days and surviving...it was in the 1800s (sorry no linky, too lazy ATM). This question is stupid. Next.

5. Slavery...these references need to be considered to whom it was written, and when it was written. At the time, slavery was a common practice. WTF good would it do for me to talk to you about the 14th Law of Malshipnowad? None. But in 50 years, when we discover those laws, it would make sense to us.

6. Bad things to good people...I am tired of this question. I am not given a shield of invulnerability because I am Christian. Just the knowledge that whatever bad thing DOES happen to me, He will be with me to carry me through it.

7. These questions are getting stupider. What does he think Lazarus was? Dead guy. Not a dead guy. Hmmm sounds like proof to me. But OK maybe he wants proof for today's world. Well that ain't gonna happen because once again, proof denies faith.

8. Sigh....OK see #1 (again) This guy needs to make this harder.

9. He did not want you to eat his body and drink His blood. He said as he handed out the meal, "This is my body broken for you"...etc. This is a symbol of His body and blood which was broken and spilled for us. When we eat this meal, we remember Him and His sacrifice for us. With that meal, we are sanctified through faith.

10. Ugh what an idiotic question. Our shortcomings are no reflection on God's power or existence. Once again, free will.

I fail to see any bizarre rationalizations here, and I am not delusional. Whatever.

That was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be.

Here's my take on the whole thing: the video had a few interesting points, but as an extremely secular person I can say that it could have been done better. It's no surprise you found it easy to deconstruct, because it was poorly constructed in the first place.

But here's the thing. You _are_ rationalizing. And in some cases you are deftly trying to avoid the point. For example, your response to the first question. You act exasperated, like you are saying something SOOOOOO obvious, then you write it off as if your point is proven, and you move on to the next question. The point of question one had NOTHING to do with faith. You know that. The point was that when someone's cancer goes away it is unfairly ATTRIBUTED to god.

Look at it this way: if cancer goes away 50 percent of the time, god gets credit for it 50 percent of the time. But really, this 50 percent recovery rate is a result of a person's immune system and medicine. God was not present, as can be proven by the direct relationship between advances in medicine and cancer recovery rates over the last say, hundred years.(And no god damn it, god was not responsible for that medicine. Science and logic were.)

Now how often do limbs regrow? Zero percent of the time, right? That's because medicine and immune systems don't regrow limbs. But on the other hand, if 5 percent of amputees regrew limbs, that 5 percent would be seen as an "ACT OF GOD!!!" That 5 percent recovery would be ATTRIBUTED to god. And if medicine improved the regrowth rate to 25 percent, god would then be getting credit for THAT percentage of recovery.

Do you see now? I've tried to lay it out as simply as possible. The point had nothing to do with faith. It has to do with a belief that is used to prove and justify itself. The old parental "I'm right because I'm right" type of thing. Or if it's easier for you, it is like a woman making herself pregnant. (Ahhh.. wait... that's already kinda been done according to you, hasn't it?)

And you DEFINITELY rationalized away the slavery thing. You are saying that that particular PART of the bible is obsolete because of its context of an ancient time, but what you are neglecting to acknowledge is that the WHOLE BIBLE is in the context of an ancient time.

You can't pick and choose what works for you, buddy. If you see the whole thing as a philosophy that's fine, but you can't hem and haw and say, "Wellllll.... this part's philosophy, but this part's fact." I'm a "tolerant" person, but this is exactly what pisses me off. If you want to take the plunge and be a literalist then f-ing do it. Either you agree with the bible and its contents or you don't. Either you agree with your book's support of slavery or you don't. And if you take some things as metaphorical or symbolic, like the blood of christ, then take the WHOLE THING as being symbolic. Meaning that the bible is NOT AT ALL FACTUAL, but is nothing more than a ppotential guide for how to lead a good life. All this picking and choosing is making me nauseous. From my perspective it is very short-sighted.

What you don't realize through most of your answers is that you are assuming in the first place that the bible is true, and that your faith is firmly rooted in reality. So you work within that assumption, breaking it into parts that are easier for you to digest. But for once, try to explain it to someone who believes the bible to be totally false. Someone who believes the bible to be the ultimate Harry Potter series, copyright 5 A.D. And don't mention that damn F word to me either. Faith. I've dirtied my mouth by saying it.

I apologize for being venemous. I am getting progressively angrier because I have tried to have this conversation with christians before...

Anyhow, I think this video was poorly executed. Agreed. But not nearly as poorly executed as all the justifications I see made by christians. That's one thing it was right about.

Maven @ 8/9/2007 1:53:23 AM

« dgmdan : Everyone living in fear of going to hell might be good, since people would be more reluctant to commit crimes and such.

No, even people who believe commit horrible crimes. Throughout history, religious beliefs have been used to justify genocide and destruction. Does that mean God is to blame for those things? No, it means that people are not perfect, and will do stupid, negative things. The fear of punishment in the afterlife is not enough to prevent wrong-doing. If it did, there wouldn't be priests getting busted for crimes.

dgmdan @ 8/9/2007 1:45:28 AM

The video had some good points, but it didn't even touch on this: Even if God is imaginary, would it really be better for the world if no one believed in him? Everyone living in fear of going to hell might be good, since people would be more reluctant to commit crimes and such.

Moe @ 8/9/2007 12:55:37 AM

Sigh...another attempt to convince my faith away...

OK I am genuinely going to do this live. I have not seen the entire video yet, just question #1. I will honestly do my best to post answers as I get the questions in real time.

CRUCIAL NOTE: I DO NOT CLAIM ALL KNOWLEDGE AND ANSWERS!!! THIS IS MY TAKE ON REALITY ONLY!!!

ALSO I FOLLOW THE CHRISTIAN PATH, YOUR INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAY MAY BE WILDLY DIFFERENT!!!

PROCEED WITH CAUTION AND COMMON SENSE!!!

1. The entire concept of Christianity is faith in God. If God healed an amputee, there would be NO FAITH. It would be proven. The entire deal is what you do with your FREE WILL. What is the point of arguing if there is a God if someone gives you his bleeding phone number? Proof is useless.

2. Once again, the answer is God's gift of free will to all people. What we do is up to us entirely. If we choose to help others, great. It is true that people suffer needlessly. But that is not God's doing. It is up to us to choose to help others.

3. God does not condemn these people to death simply because they worked on the wrong day. It was because of our disobedience to His will that separated us from Him and made us subject to His wrath. It may seem silly to condemn people for that fact, but we are not making the rules here. Also, those verses are from the Old Testament. In the New Testament all that has changed.

4. Who the hell is this guy that he KNOWS FOR ALL FACT that what the Bible says is nonsense?!?! I have read a documented case of a sailor being trapped in a whale's belly for several days and surviving...it was in the 1800s (sorry no linky, too lazy ATM). This question is stupid. Next.

5. Slavery...these references need to be considered to whom it was written, and when it was written. At the time, slavery was a common practice. WTF good would it do for me to talk to you about the 14th Law of Malshipnowad? None. But in 50 years, when we discover those laws, it would make sense to us.

6. Bad things to good people...I am tired of this question. I am not given a shield of invulnerability because I am Christian. Just the knowledge that whatever bad thing DOES happen to me, He will be with me to carry me through it.

7. These questions are getting stupider. What does he think Lazarus was? Dead guy. Not a dead guy. Hmmm sounds like proof to me. But OK maybe he wants proof for today's world. Well that ain't gonna happen because once again, proof denies faith.

8. Sigh....OK see #1 (again) This guy needs to make this harder.

9. He did not want you to eat his body and drink His blood. He said as he handed out the meal, "This is my body broken for you"...etc. This is a symbol of His body and blood which was broken and spilled for us. When we eat this meal, we remember Him and His sacrifice for us. With that meal, we are sanctified through faith.

10. Ugh what an idiotic question. Our shortcomings are no reflection on God's power or existence. Once again, free will.

I fail to see any bizarre rationalizations here, and I am not delusional. Whatever.

That was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be.

Bornbad @ 8/9/2007 12:34:00 AM

Who is this "God" you speak of? (The Magic Man?)

dork @ 8/8/2007 9:04:52 PM

« Mershaullk : But some people have hallucinations, so, since all of their hallucinations are real to them, they must be true?

again with you scientists. You like groups dont you, you know kingdom, phylum, class etc... Why not take a step back and look? Not all hallucinations are the same. Some are caused by drugs, and some by medical conditions, some by high levels of stress, and some by God.

coldbladed @ 8/8/2007 8:36:45 PM

No, sorry. It's an old saying that any debate that goes on long enough will eventually have Hitler come up. It is at that point that all avenues have been exhausted. I was referring to that.

Mershaullk @ 8/8/2007 8:28:32 PM

« coldbladed : Should I just bring up Hitler now and end the conversation? :P Sounds like you're reaching.

Bring up what about Hitler, exactly? That most people falsely believe he was an atheist?

coldbladed @ 8/8/2007 8:24:39 PM

« Mershaullk : But some people have hallucinations, so, since all of their hallucinations are real to them, they must be true?

Should I just bring up Hitler now and end the conversation? :P Sounds like you're reaching.

Mershaullk @ 8/8/2007 8:21:37 PM

« coldbladed :And whether you believe that is because of genes, upbringing, or some sort of God experience it is still very real for that person.

But some people have hallucinations, so, since all of their hallucinations are real to them, they must be true?

ArchAngel @ 8/8/2007 8:20:43 PM

Mershaullk, you seem to be under the impression that Logic is some magic path that leads to truth.

All it is, is a collection of steps that lead from one conclusion to another, originating at something we call Axioms, truths which are accepted to be true without proof.

Logic can come up with many crazy explanations, especially depending upon one's axioms.

coldbladed @ 8/8/2007 8:19:49 PM

« Mershaullk : But why associate these feelings/experiences with a might being that supposedly rules the Universe? This seems incredibly illogical to me.

Some nerdy people did a study showing that dogs don't love people, they only do things they've learned get them attention. But people still love their dogs.

For one person it is logical to love this creature, for another its repulsive, for a third he's dinner.

The answer to your question is simple, people are wired differently. And whether you believe that is because of genes, upbringing, or some sort of God experience it is still very real for that person.

Mershaullk @ 8/8/2007 8:14:44 PM

« coldbladed : Sure they can, just because they have an altered perception of what is acceptable doesn't make them crazy.

God isn't about tangible evidence, in fact if there was tangible evidence it might only to undermine him. Because God is about an experience, a feeling, a relationship, etc. God isn't about a magic man that writes advice on the wall after you pray.

But why associate these feelings/experiences with a mighty being that supposedly rules the Universe? This seems incredibly illogical to me.

coldbladed @ 8/8/2007 8:12:02 PM

« Mershaullk : Theists can be logical; just not when it comes to their religion.

Sure they can, just because they have an altered perception of what is acceptable doesn't make them crazy.

God isn't about tangible evidence, in fact if there was tangible evidence it might only to undermine him. Because God is about an experience, a feeling, a relationship, etc. God isn't about a magic man that writes advice on the wall after you pray.

Mershaullk @ 8/8/2007 8:04:23 PM

« dork : and as to that comment... The fact that you so light heartedly say that all the Christians in the world cant think logically tells me that neither can some non christians.

If you ment that comment to be humours, well I can take a joke and I apologize, but in context, it does not look like a joke to me.

Theists can be logical; just not when it comes to their religion.

dork @ 8/8/2007 8:04:21 PM

« Mershaullk : Yet String Theory has a little evidence in it's favor. God has none.

There is no evidence in God if you believe in the String Thoery. There is no evidence in the String theory if you believe in God

dork @ 8/8/2007 8:01:18 PM

« Ellz : Christians trained to think logically and critically? Okay, I'm going to just refrain from commenting there...

and as to that comment... The fact that you so light heartedly say that all the Christians in the world cant think logically tells me that neither can some non christians.

If you ment that comment to be humours, well I can take a joke and I apologize, but in context, it does not look like a joke to me.

Maven @ 8/8/2007 7:59:55 PM

Scientific theories change as new evidence is discovered. Religions don't.

Mershaullk @ 8/8/2007 7:57:11 PM

« dork : The video does point out things that im sure people who study religion have theories about each of these questions. They might seem wierd to you

But last month you answered my questions about a string theory which guys like him our trying to tell us to believe in instead of God. This theory needs a univers with between 4 and 16 dimensions (if i remember correctly) just to make gravity work. Which is just as wierd. And if the dimensions are there why dont they appear to us?

Yet String Theory has a little evidence in it's favor. God has none.

dork @ 8/8/2007 7:37:43 PM

The video does point out things that im sure people who study religion have theories about each of these questions. They might seem wierd to you

But last month you answered my questions about a string theory which guys like him our trying to tell us to believe in instead of God. This theory needs a univers with between 4 and 16 dimensions (if i remember correctly) just to make gravity work. Which is just as wierd. And if the dimensions are there why dont they appear to us?

Ellz @ 8/8/2007 7:36:02 PM

Christians trained to think logically and critically? Okay, I'm going to just refrain from commenting there...