If we're ever going to clone a human...

I wish Bush, and supporters, would have listened to more of the things that Lincoln said:

"Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure."

"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world."

"Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."

"Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all."

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

And finally (As a personal comment toward the admin.'s blanket use of the terms "terrorist" and "evil")

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg"

quotes source

I'm sorry, but this Lincoln-love is bothering me.

Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus. He attacked a sovereign nation (similar to bush), and had pretty much zero fidelity to the Constitution.

The civil war wasn't even about Slavery. Lincoln himself said that if he could "save the union without freeing one slave," he would. He hated blacks. 600,000 Americans died. Slavery died out in every other industrial nation without war...why couldn't ours?

Why is this someone we look up to?

Well apart from pointing out that the description itself mentions that this decision launched us into a civil war, I'd also like to point out that he kept the nations together. They were attempting to seceed; and when he signed the emancipation proclamation he basically sealed the deal. Had he not done this, there would be two countries here instead of one.



Based on all the things you have said, I'm surprised that you actually seem to believe that the civil war was about slavery.

As to the whole "he hated blacks" thing; you have to look at the times in which these things were said. White men believed themselves to be of a higher class; they were taught this by teachers and scientists alike. You can't fault a man for believing what the world has told him, a man should be judged by actions rather than words. He signed a paper that freed the slaves, and whether he believed that his race was superior or not does not erase this. At the very least, he did not believe that anyone should be enslaved, and that is what the emancipation proclamation was about.

Well gee, if the description itself says it's true, it must be! Even though that would require overlooking the fact that the war had been going on for years before the Emancipation Proclamation was issued. And then there's the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't actually free the slaves, since it by its express terms--and as intended by Lincoln--it only applied in the specific areas still controlled by the Confederacy.

Those are some solid points. You're absolutely right, the war was already going on before this document was signed. I keep getting my history muddled.

Many states, including northern states, would not have ratified the Constitution without the ability to secede. Lincoln disregarded the Constitution when he invaded the sovereign nation. The southern states almost certainly would have rejoined the Union a few years later when they could not have sustained themselves. But no, Lincoln had to kill 600,000 Americans.

I believe I said "The Civil War wasn't about slavery." So, I don't understand how you get the idea that I think it was about slavery.

Secondly, I don't care what culture you live in, hating people of another race is wrong. Would you fault southerners for being racist because of they culture? No. Lincoln was a racist, and he was a tyrant.

Again...why do we look up to this person?

I shall quote you: "Slavery died out in every other industrial nation without war...why couldn't ours?"

You said both that and "...wasn't about slavery" in the same post; so I wasn't sure which you believed in.


Again, I'm not talking geography, I'm talking history. He was taught, as were most men; that blacks were an inferior race. Was he racist? I guess so, when you put it like that; but by the same token almost all men were sexist until women fought for their rights.

I still don't get the tyrant claim; nor do I get how certain you are that the south would have rejoined the union. There's no way to know that for sure, with the obvious exception of looking back on it all from over one hundred years in the future.