I am 100% pro choice, but this is completely unsupportable.
wow, I cannot believe the things people do....

i agree with you. it is brutish and even as a last resort it is saddening.

the legal safeguards, however, are too important, imo. as much as i like to only on the rarest cases condone the practice, the price that would be paid for total abortion abolition is too great.

All it changes is the guilt and reality that comes with killing a breathing human.

I personally don't agree with abortion. I'm not judgmental about other peoples choices and I completely understand that there are a million and 1 reasons why women choose to have one. My wife had an abortion at the age of 16 and deals with some real issues even now especially around the time the baby would have been born.

I personally can't get my head around the facts of abortion at all. My personal feelings are that no one gets pregnant by immaculate conception so if it's at all within your power to give birth then that's the right way to go IMO. I've heard from a few woman AND men who feel that abortion is an 'easy option', when it's inconvenient money wise, career wise ect to have a baby and I do find it disturbing when abortion is a get out clause instead of a last ditch option in the most extreme circumstances.

5mth old fetus

5mth old fetus. At this age abortion is by fatal injection then the baby is removed and discarded. Up until this point it's done by dissecting the baby and then sucking out the parts.

As disgusting as this story is and harrowing to read, babies are cut up, put down by lethal injection and discarded every day, in their thousands. I'm not entirely sure how this is that far removed from the daily reality of 'normal' abortion.

Let the downvoting commence

First of all he didn't repeat himself and care to explain why having a differing opinion to your's is 'being an a*****e'?

His tone was a bit harsh, disrespectful, rude and somewhat dismissive of others. HOWEVER, I had no problem with that. Abortion is a subject many people are quite passionate about. He wasn't trying to be an a*****e, he was just very passionate.

His first comment was quite polite and there is no excuse in my mind for it being downvoted. Downvoting someone just because they have a different opinion when they are debating and not arguing is reprehensible.

However, b***hing about being downvoted, insulting those who downvoted - that I have a problem with. As you've said many times, people shouldn't complain about being downvoted unless perhaps there is some sort of serial downvoting from a group of everything you post.

Whining about being downvoted should not be tolerated. Still he got quite a few upvotes because he whined so it achieved what he hoped it would.

a few things,

first of all to make your argument stronger you need to make the disparity in your analogy much wider. Removing a mole can possibly lead to skin cancer. Unlikely, but possible.

Instead of using the mole comparison use something like:

"In some states you need a parent's permission to get a SUNTAN! In order to use a tanning salon you need to get mommy's permission. An abortion can be a rather major procedure. Even when it is a simple one, there are risks of severe, even fatal complications, yet a child doesn't need permission from their guardian. However to protect a young lady from the risk of a sunburned derriere they insist - and people are okay with - getting permission from a parent!?"

See that makes your argument a bit stronger.

On the other hand, your argument falls apart because you are looking at the wrong reason for not requiring a parent's permission. It has nothing to do with the risk of the medical procedure (which really aren't that great). It has nothing to do with parent's rights.

It is solely in the interests of the patient.

There are many parents who would never give permission to their daughter no matter what the situation. There are some cases where the parent is a rapist and fathered the baby. There are many times where the daughters life or well being would be in grave danger should the parent be made aware of her condition. There would be many cases where the daughter would know all of this and instead of obtaining permission or just forging permission would seek an abortion from an unqualified person using whatever happens to be at hand. This could be harmful to the patient. It could also be botched where the baby is born with severe problems.

In a perfect world a teenager would need the consent of her parent(s). Sadly this is far from a perfect world.

Yeh, I get about the downvote whining BUT that was a later edit to his original comment hence he must have been getting DV's before he whined about them.

I'm just saying, it seems to me more and more and more that differing opinions and viewpoints are tolerated less and less here. Trying to suppress peoples opinions is both ignorant AND counter-productive to an intelligent and interesting site.

The more people get told they are a*****es for expressing an opinion the less they will comment and express their opinions and the less Plime will become a forum for open, intelligent discussion and debate and the more it will become a place to post pictures of yourself to get "Phwaorr", HAWT", comments, a place merely for juvenile giggles among a select few and will be well on it's way to becoming a generic, boring site, one of a million out there.

/one a*****es opinion

nothing to add. Just felt your comment felt repeating. I fully agree with it.

Hi everyone,

This is my first post. I'm a journalism professor and have been reading the Plime articles and comments daily for about a year. Last week, I gave three of my classes an assignment: they read one of the Plime articles and the related comments then wrote a response paper with their own opinions. Congratulations, Plimates, you've been cited in scholarly papers. :-)

Now on to the issue: I've never involved myself in online threads, but the abortion controversy has always struck a nerve with me, so I thought I'd join the fray and offer my viewpoint on the subject:

I discovered I was one month pregnant in my early twenties after I had decided to leave my fiance, who wanted me to abort the baby. (Not to give TMI, but he had promised during sex to withdraw but didn't. He later told me he had not withdrawn on purpose because he thought if I were pregnant, I'd marry him sooner. When I refused to marry him altogether, he pressed for abortion.) I placed the baby for private adoption and chose the parents (whom I didn't know previously) because I wanted the baby to go to a home I found suitable.

My parents, fundamentalist Christians, were critical and emotionally nonsupportive of me. I am not a Christian. I try to base my decisions on evaluation of facts as I understand them; therefore, my value judgments are based on my own conclusions and not religous constructs. After I delivered the baby, I attempted to go to college but suffered severe post partum depression and had to leave during the first semester then wait a year or so before I resumed my studies. I lost that semester's tuition and dorm expenses, and experienced other problems as well.

Following are the 15 most common reasons I've heard or read supporting abortion and my responses to these reasons, in no particular order. Forgive my long-windedness. This is the first, and probably last, online post I'll make:

Reason 1) The fetus isn't human. My response: The fetus is human. Take a DNA sample from the cells.

Reason 2) The embryo is merely a cluster of cells, no different from, say, moss.
My response: An embryo is a stage of human development. After the egg is fertilized, nothing is added for its entire life but nutrition until it dies. Moss never becomes a grown adult because it's not human. If you leave it alone, it remains moss. You have to destroy a fetus to keep it from growing, and it is already a human being in a stage of development.-- Again, take a DNA sample.

Reason 3) The fetus isn't really a human until it's viable/can sustain its life on its own. My response: The term "viable" seems arbitrary. A one-year old isn't viable, meaning he/she will live much less than a week on his/her own without intense human care. Therefore, when do we become capabile of sutaining our own lives?

Reason 4) "Viable" means the baby begins breathing air without relying on the mother to stay alive. Many religions support the idea that life begins at first breath. My response: Again, the term "viable" seems arbitrary. When these religious beliefs were formed, people lacked the scientific understanding to know the baby derived oxygen from the mother through the umbilical cord. THese people thought the baby began living at birth. Why is deriving oxygen through the stomach (umbilical cord) rather than through the lungs considered validation of personhood or "real" life? Is a baby/grown adult with helath problems who is taking in oxygen, through artficial means, by a machine a real person because he/she needs assistance to obtain oxygen?

Reason 5) The embryo/fetus doesn't look like a real person. My response: Again, "real person" is an arbitrary term. Babies and toddlers don't look like real people, if by that term you mean a middle-aged adult. Babies' and toddlers' heads are far too large for thier bodies, and babies and toddlers can't walk or run, (or do anything really functional or contribute much to society, for that matter). Babies have no teeth and are bald. (I personally don't think babies look cute. I think they are unattractive compaired to kittens.) Expanding on this idea, old people with their wrinkly skin and other so-called "problems" don't look look like real people, either. Nor do dwarves, or possibly people with skin whose color is different than mine, whose nose and eyes are shaped differently than mine, and any other designation I'd like to assign to the term "real person." If you're trying to decide whether the embryo is a human being, again, try a DNA sample.

Reason 6: A woman has a right to control her own body, and the baby is part of her body. My response: I agree a woman has the right to control her own body. The fetus/embryo/baby is not part of her body. Again, take a DNA sample, which will reveal a different person than the mother. (By extention, if your should be legally able to kill a part of your own body, especially based on DNA analysis, an identical twin should be able to legally kill his/her sister/brother.)

Reason 7: The embryo/fetus isn't alive. My response: Yes, it is. You have to intervene -- to kill it -- to cause it to stop living and developing. If you don't destroy it, it will continue to live until it dies from old age. A rock is not alive. If you leave a rock alone, it remains an inert rock -- because it is not alive. You don't have to kill it to keep it, as people have said regarding an embryo "from becoming" a human being.

Reason 8: The fetus is not a contributing member of society. My response: See reponse # 5. Also, by extension, let's exterminate anyone we believe isn't contributing to society. (particulary those with emotional and physical problems, those who have committed crimes, and so on.)

Reason 9: The mother isn't ready for a baby. She wants to go to school, she's poor, the baby is unwanted, the father left, you don't know what she's going through, and so on. My response: In that case, let's exterminate all people who are unwanted, in the way of someone's education, who are poor, abused, and so on. In addition, a few people in my life have caused me the same amount of or a great deal more anguish and trouble than my embryo/fetus/baby, but I didn't exterminate them, nor would I legally be allowed to do so. Also, why do women who kill their children because these children are unwanted/causing trouble/ burden and so on go to jail? After all, you don't know what these women are going through.

Reason 10: Abortion is widely practiced, so it must be ok. There must be validity to the practice. My response: Oppression of women and racial/ethnic inequality, among other atrocities, are also practiced worldwide. Does that mean they're valid? Remember the bandwagon fallacy?

Reason 11: Many fetilized eggs are expelled from the uturus or in some way die before the baby is born. My response: Everyone dies somehow, so it's OK to kill humans.

Reason 12: Abortion is legal. My response: Legality is a man-made construct. Slavery was legal in the U.S. as was homosexuality and the woman's vote. Women worldwide are still denied the same legal rights as men.


Reason 13: People who don't believe in abortion are narrow minded. My response. We all have a responsibility to carefully and thoughtfully make value judgments. Rape is wrong. Murder is wrong. Lying is wrong. Stealing is wrong. (Actually, I believe murder, lying, stealing and abortion are acceptable under extremely limited circumstances.)

Reason 14: I don't believe in abortion, but let's give women a safe place to perform them. Women will get them, anyway. My response: People will rape, kill, steal, and lie, anyway, so let's give them a safe place to do perform these acts. (Sarcasm.)

Reason 15: The embryo/fetus doesn't have conciousness and doesn't feel pain. My response: It's OK to kill people as long as they are unconcious or don't feel the pain. (Again, sarcasm.)

Overall, I believe as long as there's doubt whether an embryo is human, let's give it the benefit of the doubt. What I see in posts everywhere online are people living their lives (even people who are poor, abused, unwanted and so on) deciding that unborn (preborn) people don't have the right to live. Let's let these people grow old enough to decide themselves whether they want to live or not then take their own lives if they decide they're not worth the trouble/pain. After all, that's the choice the rest of us have been given, right?

*Slow clap*

Brilliantly constructed comment and amazingly well put. Thank you for your input and welcome to Plime.

I really hope we hear more from you.

Also, any chance of seeing any of those papers? :)

I think this is pretty funny. I wish funny things would happen more often so we could all laugh together.

IT would've been really funny if they forgot and started throwing in banana peels and coffee grounds on the baby, and the baby would be all 'WTF?'.

*edit Do you people not understand OVER THE TOP surrealism? Is it too much to ask that you engage your tiny minds before you hit the precious downvote button?

Why are you downvoting me you stupid c**tS?!

Do you not understand humor you imbeciles?

*edit I totally didn't write that last part. God you're retards

I have nothing to add to 2many's explanation except to say I only called him an a*****e after he started whining about being downvoted for telling all women in all circumstances they are wrong no matter what and then ridiculously implying that he was not doing the equivalent of humming with his fingers in his ears while the rest of us were debating.

Hugely interesting and considered post.

I'll just deal with this point, though, since its logic seems a little flawed. The fetus is very much a part of the woman's body, if you are demanding that any fetus that forms must automatically be allowed to grow to full term. It will take impact on the woman's physiology in far greater ways than a bump on the stomach - as you know, of course: I'm not trying to talk down to you.

It just seems that you are necessarily dictating the future of a woman's (and *never* a man's) body for nine months of her life, and using "separate DNA" as your only justification. To me, it seems to have little to do with DNA. If I don't want something growing in my womb, I don't see that I have a right to leave it there. If it can be kept alive outside my body, fine; if it can't, then it is a part of my body, DNA or no.

My youngest brother had his umbilical cord wrapped around his neck during a time in his pregnancy, and had risk of brain damage due to lack of oxygen. The doctors advised my mother to abort him due to that. Well, my mother is pro-life, and she adamantly refused. She gave birth, and he's just fine now. If she went through with what the doctors suggested, my brother wouldn't be here. That is something to think about for me.

I do totally agree with this. It makes no sense how a 14 yr old pregnant girl can go get and abortion, AN INVASIVE OPERATION, without parental consent, while receiving a Tylenol from the school nurse, or ANY other hospital visit, still requires parental notification. It's hypocritical and special treatment. If you are going to allow abortions, for the sake of the patients, give them the proper information and safety precautions.

This is horrible, but I can see more of this happening if abortion were made illegal and desperate mothers turned to less and less qualified doctors. The mothers would die a lot more too. Not only should the person who did this be blamed, but the staff who hired him as well. This sounds like an incredibly negligent practice that should have been stopped long before.
Abortion is supposed to make sure that a child doesn't have a terrible time on this earth. This completely defeated that.
('Can just be adopted' Usually applies to white children, I've experienced this firsthand. There is also no guarantee that a mother with something like, say, munchausen byproxy won't keep the child, and abuse them anyway, as in the case of Mary Bell. I somehow don't think becoming a serial killer was a moral failing on the part of a 10 year old.)

I had a response to 2many...but I am awed by writegurl.

What he said. I love your post. I almost have half a mind to send it off to some people I know. ;)

Hope to see you around more in the future!

Hi there TheMeEvan/CopOfLaw.

New account and still trolling with obnoxious comments to try and get a reaction I see. See you again with your next account

I believe you win the award for most well thought out first post ever.

Your class assignment is intriguing. Would you care to share some of them in a forum thread?