My mother is married to a Pakistani and I have a half sister and half brother who are both mixed race. I have had to deal with situations like that before. Try not to make assumptions about people doggy, you will almost always be wrong.

I stand by what I said. It's a picture of a monkey with a name next to it. Nothing is implied the only things wrong with it are what people choose to see.

I bought Maddison a t-shirt with a monkey on it last week. Should the shop be banned from selling them incase they offend? I also bought her one with a cow on it. Am I a bad parent for implying my daughter is a cow? Of course not, that would be stupid, as is this discussion.

Good for you dl...and you're right on everything you've said. (Can't believe I just said that)

...hard to believe how many ignorant, small minded mother f**kers that have been able to successfully reproduce.

Does the T-shirt you bought your kid with a monkey on it have the name of a black man underneath it? No? Then don't be so obtuse and frivolous, of course it's not racist!! I find it really hard to believe that you don't have the intelligence to define between this Obama T-shirt and a kids T-shirt with a random animal on it.

Do you think they randomly picked a monkey out of a hat to put on that Obama t-shirt, that it could just have easily have been a giraffe?!! C'mon.

As for jumping to conclusions, I couldn't give a flying fart if you were black yourself, I was making the point that anyone with personal experience of racism will tend to look a different way at things like this. If you don't see anything wrong with it, good for you, that's your opinion.

If you have personal/acedemic knowledge of racism and it's history I AM surprised you see nothing wrong with a picture of a monkey with no humorous context above the name of a black man.

I agree, but it's not national news worthy. My point is this is just some a*****e, conservative bar owner that thought is was funny and would get a rise out of people by selling these T-shirts. Now that he's made national news, I'm sure he's not thinking something along the lines of being sorry for what he did. He's probably thinking I succeeded in pissing off thousands of liberals, and where he can get more of these shirts. Like minded idiots are probably thinking, "s**t, his bar is plastered all over the internet and national news. What can I do get this kind of free publicity."

Trolls, for the most part, should be ignored.

Just done some Googling on the Bar owner who made and sells these T-shirts.

Here's couple of signs he's put on his billboard "No habla espanol — and never will" and "I.N.S. Agents eat free." This combined with the T-shirt he's hawking makes me think he's distinctly racist.

He's a typical racist who bleats on that he's not racist because most are too scared to come out and openly say it.

What the f**k do you mean? What exactly are you pathetically trying to say?

My views have always been non-racist completely.

I always feel that all should be treated equally.

Calling me racist is a f**king joke coming from you. Calling me naive or uneducated is even more laughable.


History?
Okay so blacks have had a raw deal at one point in history. That doesn't give them a free card to act racist towards white, it doesn't give anyone a free card to "make up for wrongs done to others".

It certainly doesn't mean that blacks should be treated differently. It most certainly doesn't mean they get special treatment or are supposed to be handled with kid gloves.

If portraying Obama as curious george is wrong than portraying Bush is equally wrong. Bush has been portrayed as far far worse.

I would bet that if Hillary was portrayed as a witch there would be little notice. If Obama's wife was portrayed as a witch, there would be calls of racism and people would be fired.

My point - which you have constantly refused to understand - is racism is racism. Bigotry is bigotry. The history of one's race means nothing. It doesn't make racism any more or less wrong.

It is the same with gender as well. Jokes against women in movies/television etc are usually downplayed whereas jokes against men are fine and common place. All women institutions are fine - all male institutions are evil.

There have been very little prejudice against Norwegians in this country so I guess by your definition it is fine to be bigoted against them since they don't have a history of being victimized.

That is my f**king point. Portray a white man in a racist manner and all is fine. Portray a non-white and there is hell to pay. Expecting one to be treated differently than another [for better or worse] solely because of their race is racist.

nevermind. I could go on. But you won't or can't understand.

You just go on telling yourself you're a special kind of man and the rest of us are not as cool or tolerant as you are.

You've implied that I was a racist before and I let it slack. No more.

This has nothing to do with a difference of opinion. I know we do.

I feel that all racism/bigotry is wrong. You feel that only racism against blacks is wrong.

I couldn't care less about a difference of opinion that I share with you.

Where were you abusive? When you called me racist yet again.

Yes, I downvoted BB when he was saying f**k you to everyone for doing what they were supposed to. For saying "f**k you" to me for upvoting his edit.

Yes, I edited your comments which personally insulted a new member because insulting someone on their first post is wrong and rude. He did not insult anyone. Insulting new members is hardly the thing to make them stick around.

[I also edited my comments, removing the "f**k you" from the time you quoted them and the time you posted your comment]

I don't want them to be insulted because I want them to stay.

You on the other hand can take a flying f**k at a rolling donut. Calling me a racist again - is a rather sad example of a "civil conversation"

Your claim that you did not attack me personally is pure bulls**t.

Comment removed as not constructive to the thread or life itself. OP

that is calling me a racist. Also as I said, it isn't the first time that you've stooped to such a level.

yes, your comments weren't the bad one. Your's had to be edited because you quoted the one who made the rude comment and was laughing about it. I had to edit yours since the other was edited.

At the time of the comment and after the edit which I PM'd you both about, you did not know that the user was being a jerk in chat or making threats. Neither did the one who implied the user had an IQ of 59.

The insult was because he oddly talked about a 2-year Super Bowl like it happened last Sunday. It wasn't done for any other reason. Don't make yourself out like some hero here.

You brought up the editing not me so I didn't see the need for a long explanation of the event.

edit: You have always spoken as if you felt that racism against blacks is different than others and even that racism isn't possible against whites. Your excuse is always the same "history" that the history of blacks make them different. That the history of whites and the level of control they've had historically speaking means racism against them isn't the same.

I think you should take another look at doggylives comments, he doesn't once call you racist OR make personal attacks. Really, I think you should think before you post because most of your comments are pure trash, try making an argument rather than resorting to insults.

Just my opinion, but I think Obama's speech on race is still the definitive answer to this argument. He sees both sides of the debate, whites who see black people getting favorable treatment and that causes resentment. Blacks that have experienced years of prejudice and stereotyping which causes resentment on their side. Is it wrong to depict Bush as a monkey? probably, is it worse to depict Obama as a monkey? well the difference is that depicting bush as a monkey is offensive to bush, whereas depicting Obama as a monkey is offensive to all blacks.

So yes, it is worse.

The depiction of Bush as a monkey was based on his apparent intelligence. They aren't saying Bush is a monkey because all white people are monkeys. The people are saying Obama is a monkey because he's black, therefore making the statement that all black people are no better than monkeys and aren't fit to run the country.

The obvious difference between the two is that one is based on race and no actual observance other than that. The other is based on apparent intelligence.

Oh, and one is racist and the other isn't...

Bush has EARNED his reputation for acting like a primate.

They should have picked Dobby. Putyn did not get offended, so probably Obama supporters would not get offended either. What a pity Obama does not look like Dobby, just because of this issue I really wish he didn't look like Curious George either.

While I understand where 2many is coming from (he does have a valid point.) This is a case of blatant racism. This isn't a regular joe blow who thought it'd be a good idea to compare a candidate to an animal. This is a man who has on previous occasions set out to cause a stir. He likened a black candidate to a monkey. His intent is quite obvious here.
That being said, i agree with Alton; do not feed the trolls.

Funny you should say that but isn't Bush the president of a democratic country? Like a country where people actually choose who to vote for?

Enough about Bush, the shirt of Obama supposedly portrayed as a monkey has had to be explained to me and several others I know as to why it would cause controversy. Not one person I have spoken to about it saw the connection of him being Black to the picture of a monkey.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist because I know from first hand experience that it does (I also live in Liverpool which was the slavery export capital of the world for a long time therefor am very well versed in the history of racism and slavery thank you very much DL),what I am saying is that the word racist is thrown about far too easily nowadays, Rhys Jones was a schoolboy who was shot not 15 miles from here,Jimmy Mizen was murdered the day after his 16th birthday while out shopping with his brother. These were horrific crimes which, had they happened to a member of an ethinic community would have been classed as racially motivated.

I remember being a schoolboy getting into a fight, it's what schoolkids did back then. I got into a fight with a kid who was chinese, I was suspended for being racist. I didn't fight him because he was chinese I fought him because he was a prick.

I'm done arguing, some people will automatically say black if I say white so why bother?

OOps can't say that can I it's being racist.

Whether or not you see the shirt as racist, I'm sure you can tell its meant to be racist because,

The monkey wasn't an accident. I don't think they are poking fun of his intelligence or his big ears, they put the monkey on there because they know what it symbolizes. They picked the monkey because they wanted attention and they wanted controversy, and they have done it before. I am a white 17 year old kid and saw the problem with the shirt immediately.


My mom works at an Intensive Care Unit for infants in Philadelphia, and the nurses tried to decorate they clear baby box things with foam jungle animals and they randomly stuck the animals on to the boxes but the black parents got mad because the monkeys were racist. So some people still see the monkey as a strong racist symbol.

No one is saying the shirt was not intentionally offensive. We understand that. *My* beef is that the "deal" is exponentially bigger because the target of the insult is black (or of mixed race).

I'm with 2many, here. If the bar had printed up shirts with pictures of a cow with Rosie O'Donnell's name under it, this uproar wouldn't be NEARLY as loud. Think about it.

Oh sorry, I never realized you lived in Liverpool, you must be very well versed in the history of slavery if you live in Liverpool.

I've got a few friends from Liverpool and they've shown me their diploma's in Slavery History that Liverpool council hands out to it's residents.

That is beyond silly. This illustrates my point beautifully. When have you ever heard of a white person getting upset because crackers were served at a luncheon?

I'm NOT SAYING that all black people feel/act this way. Not at all. I think there is a certain personality type (of ALL RACES) that wants to find offense. It makes them feel justified or something. It fills some need for them.