Obama t-shirt controversy or is it? : RSS 2.0

Obama t-shirt controversy or is it?

What do you think?

donteatpoop @ 5/15/2008 2:01:27 PM

« Rowangrey : You're kidding, right? See, my first interpretation of the shirt was that the designer was calling Obama simple. Curious George's "thing" is to misunderstand how the world works and get himself into a huge amount of trouble that someone else has to bail him out of. Cute, but dumb as a stump.

You're kidding, right? I've reread the thread and the only thing I can find from you is "I don't get it" and "if this was about Rosie..."

Maybe I missed it.

Still though. Monkey is a black stereotype no matter how you slice it, whether you got it or not, whether you interpreted it differently or not, it's still a racial slur. Given the guys history, I have no doubt that it was intended as a racial slur either.

Kudos to all of you who were oblivious to the racist message on this T-Shirt, I envy your innocence.

donteatpoop @ 5/15/2008 1:40:05 PM

« ImNotBlue :
A lot of this seems to be coming down to political opinion. If you think that Obama is a great candidate... "the shirt must be racist, because who could criticize Obama for anything on substance?"

I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. I'm an anarchist, I could give two f**ks about any candidate outside of them being human beings.

Walk down the street and find a black person doing something stupid, then compare his stupidity to Curious George (a monkey) and see what kind of reaction you get.

2manyusernames @ 5/15/2008 11:22:58 AM

« ImNotBlue : I just wish people who downvoted had the courage (especially when the point is debatable) to respond.

Oh well... it takes more than that to hurt my feelings.

plus it takes 1000's of downvotes to hurt one's level so it really shouldn't cause as much drama as it does.

ImNotBlue @ 5/15/2008 10:46:55 AM

« 2manyusernames : Upvoted you to make up for the Dastardly Lowlife who downvoted you.

I just wish people who downvoted had the courage (especially when the point is debatable) to respond.

Oh well... it takes more than that to hurt my feelings.

2manyusernames @ 5/15/2008 10:40:19 AM

comment I quoted was deleted so doing likewise.

doggylives @ 5/15/2008 10:28:18 AM

« 2manyusernames : Upvoted you to make up for the Dastardly Lowlife who downvoted you.

Comment removed as not constructive to the thread or life itself. OP

SkandarGraun @ 5/15/2008 10:18:00 AM

started a forum thread on a similar topic

http://www.plime.com/f/4206/#q18

davbob @ 5/15/2008 9:39:23 AM

Thats what I thought. Never once made the black/minkey connection. I must be naive.

2manyusernames @ 5/15/2008 9:19:12 AM

« ImNotBlue : So what if the shirt was using the monkey to call Obama an idiot. Is that okay?

There are people who disagree with him... and after his "57 states" confusion, some are calling him an "dumbass." So then, I guess the shirt's okay?

A lot of this seems to be coming down to political opinion. If you think that Obama is a great candidate... "the shirt must be racist, because who could criticize Obama for anything on substance?"

As I have said before, this is a big indication about what's going to happen over the next few months, and potentially the next few years. There was a lot of nastiness that came out towards the Bush Administration... and if the Democratic Nominee wins the White House, that nastiness is going to start coming fast and furious from the other side. And there are going to be a lot of angry people screaming, "Not fair," when they start seeing the same things they were doing for four years, coming back at them.

(Sorry for being somewhat unrelated to the thread...)

Upvoted you to make up for the Dastardly Lowlife who downvoted you.

Rowangrey @ 5/15/2008 8:37:47 AM

« donteatpoop : There has to be a reason the Curious George is on there above the name Obama, so what other possible interpretation is there?

You're kidding, right? See, my first interpretation of the shirt was that the designer was calling Obama simple. Curious George's "thing" is to misunderstand how the world works and get himself into a huge amount of trouble that someone else has to bail him out of. Cute, but dumb as a stump.

ImNotBlue @ 5/15/2008 12:42:15 AM

« Mershaullk : People don't make fun of Bush because he's white. They make fun of him because he's a dumbass. Make fun of Obama's intelligence all you want. It probably won't get you anywhere because he hasn't really displayed any lack thereof, but if you say that he can't run a country because he's black, you're a racist.

For the record, I'm not calling 2many racist. I'm pretty sure that the shirt in question was meant as a "We can't let a black guy into the White House" kind of thing.

« donteatpoop : The monkey makes this racist. If they had been calling him a dumbass, they'd be fine; but they're not - they're calling him a monkey.

Bush is compared to a monkey, because he's an idiot. Obama is being compared to a monkey because he's black.

Davbob, I understand that you and several others didn't make the monkey-black connection; but the connection is there. If it isn't a monkey-black connection; what does it mean? There has to be a reason the Curious George is on there above the name Obama, so what other possible interpretation is there?

So what if the shirt was using the monkey to call Obama an idiot. Is that okay?

There are people who disagree with him... and after his "57 states" confusion, some are calling him an "dumbass." So then, I guess the shirt's okay?

A lot of this seems to be coming down to political opinion. If you think that Obama is a great candidate... "the shirt must be racist, because who could criticize Obama for anything on substance?"

As I have said before, this is a big indication about what's going to happen over the next few months, and potentially the next few years. There was a lot of nastiness that came out towards the Bush Administration... and if the Democratic Nominee wins the White House, that nastiness is going to start coming fast and furious from the other side. And there are going to be a lot of angry people screaming, "Not fair," when they start seeing the same things they were doing for four years, coming back at them.

(Sorry for being somewhat unrelated to the thread...)

Bornbad @ 5/14/2008 11:34:37 PM

I'm really happy to see so many comments on this issue. When I first saw it I thought...WTF? Then I thought...WTF? As you can see I haven't changed my mind. The monkey thing is just wrong. Bush looks more like a monkey IMHO.

krash @ 5/14/2008 11:33:40 PM

It was done purely as a racist comment, that is obvious and I am sure this a*****e will now find himself in court for copyright violation.

I live very close to East St. Louis, if you think this is NOT a racist t-shirt, come visit me and wear that shirt. Once we go for a drive down to the city, I think you will have a change of heart, if you still have one left.

The question is should this even be in the news in the first place. It would have been a small blip on the screen and then gone away, but now this guy gets what he wants, attention.

The media needs to stop covering this kind of stuff, all they do is keep it going.

Now back to reading about shrimp that can see through my clothing.... :)

donteatpoop @ 5/14/2008 9:02:59 PM

The monkey makes this racist. If they had been calling him a dumbass, they'd be fine; but they're not - they're calling him a monkey.

Bush is compared to a monkey, because he's an idiot. Obama is being compared to a monkey because he's black.

Davbob, I understand that you and several others didn't make the monkey-black connection; but the connection is there. If it isn't a monkey-black connection; what does it mean? There has to be a reason the Curious George is on there above the name Obama, so what other possible interpretation is there?

Rowangrey @ 5/14/2008 6:37:38 PM

« dork : Not to draw attention from the real issue, or be nit-pickey

Whoops! My mistake. :) I'm a goober.

hOOsker @ 5/14/2008 6:26:05 PM

« RowanGrey:

I'm NOT SAYING that all black people feel/act this way. Not at all. I think there is a certain personality type (of ALL RACES) that wants to find offense. It makes them feel justified or something. It fills some need for them.

typical woman

Mershaullk @ 5/14/2008 6:23:37 PM

« 2manyusernames : Yes, the shirt is racist. I didn't say it wasn't.
I was merely bringing up again that it was okay to make fun of Bush but not Obama. That too many in this country think racism is a one-way street.

People don't make fun of Bush because he's white. They make fun of him because he's a dumbass. Make fun of Obama's intelligence all you want. It probably won't get you anywhere because he hasn't really displayed any lack thereof, but if you say that he can't run a country because he's black, you're a racist.

For the record, I'm not calling 2many racist. I'm pretty sure that the shirt in question was meant as a "We can't let a black guy into the White House" kind of thing.

dork @ 5/14/2008 6:22:24 PM

« 2manyusernames : Even

Forget about making fun of Obama. Even discussing him in ways that are not worshipful, even disagreeing with his policies are often times labeled racist. Most people who don't vote for him, do so because they feel he is not the best candidate. Are there some that will vote against him simply because he is black (even though he is as much white as he is black)? Yes there are, but they are a minority. However many try to label those who are against him as racists because it helps Obama's cause.

I agree with that. Racism is blamed too much for things that arn't but this shirt isn't one of those things. It is true that many anti-Obama people are "racisit"(note the quotes) and that isnt right, Im sure some voters feel the pressure of being called racist when they vote which also isnt right.

but just because one thing is wrongly labeled racist doesnt mean everything is.

dork @ 5/14/2008 6:17:06 PM

Not to draw attention from the real issue, or be nit-pickey

...If the bar had printed up shirts with pictures of a cow with Rosie O'Donnell's name under it, this uproar wouldn't be NEARLY as loud.

2manyusernames @ 5/14/2008 6:10:18 PM

« RowanGrey : Ok, granted, there isn't an uproar (but I didn't say anything about an uproar that I recall). However, it obviously made news somewhere, or we wouldn't have an article to comment on. :)

I think this also supports my theory. Racism is a pet theme of the American media, and (probably there fore) the American public. It is treated very differently from other types of discrimination, and especially when it is used against blacks.

Yes, when Rosie made fun of a chinese person's language and stereotypical accent, there was some small notice, some complaints reported by the media, but it was quickly dropped.

Was it because it wasn't against blacks?
Was it because it didn't come from a conservative?
Was it because it didn't come from a white male?
Was it because people realized that it wasn't done maliciously, it wasn't done out of hatred, but was done for humor?

I wish the answer was the last one, but I doubt it.

RowanGrey @ 5/14/2008 6:01:40 PM

« dork : There isnt an uproar. The thing said 12 people protested the shirt and then Plime debates it calmly.

Ok, granted, there isn't an uproar (but I didn't say anything about an uproar that I recall). However, it obviously made news somewhere, or we wouldn't have an article to comment on. :)

...and weight-ism hasnt caught the media's or the public's attention yet.

I think this also supports my theory. Racism is a pet theme of the American media, and (probably there fore) the American public. It is treated very differently from other types of discrimination, and especially when it is used against blacks.

2manyusernames @ 5/14/2008 6:01:34 PM

« dork : Wether or not you see the shirt as racist, I'm sure you can tell its racist because,

The monkey wasnt an accident. I dont think they are poking fun of his intellegence or his big ears, they put the monkey on there because they know what it symbolizes. They picked the monkey because they wanted attention and they wanted contraversy, and they have done it before. I am a white 17 year old kid and saw the problem the shirt imeditaly.

My mom works at an Intensive Care Unit for infints in Philadelphia, and the nurses tried to decorate they clear baby box things with foam jungle animals and they randomly stuck the animals on to the boxes but the black parents got mad because the monkeys were racist. So some people still see the monkey as a strong racist symbol.

Even something as nice as putting up baby toys will offend some. They see it as racist even when it isn't. Similar to the hoopla that was raised because Florida was using the slogan "shine" as part of its tourism campaign. It turns out that decades ago 'shine' was in a limited use as a racist term. Therefor any other use of the word is Evil.

Yes, the shirt is racist. I didn't say it wasn't.
I was merely bringing up again that it was okay to make fun of Bush but not Obama. That too many in this country think racism is a one-way street.

Forget about making fun of Obama. Even discussing him in ways that are not worshipful, even disagreeing with his policies are often times labeled racist. Most people who don't vote for him, do so because they feel he is not the best candidate. Are there some that will vote against him simply because he is black (even though he is as much white as he is black)? Yes there are, but they are a minority. However many try to label those who are against him as racists because it helps Obama's cause.

As racist as the shirt is, the purpose of the shirt isn't racism. It doesn't even mean the bar owner is racist necessarily (he may be, not saying he isn't). The purpose of the shirt was to cause a stir and result in publicity which would result in a better bottom line. that purpose succeeded tremendously.

That doesn't make it any better, just agreeing that the main purpose of the shirt is to advertise the business.

browntrout @ 5/14/2008 5:59:14 PM

If he wasn't dead, you could ask Howard Cosell how people view the monkey comparison...

From Wikipedia:

Cosell drew criticism during one Monday Night Football telecast in September 1983, for stating "look at that little monkey go," when he referred to a play by black receiver Alvin Garrett of the Washington Redskins regarding a run after a reception. While some saw "little monkey" as a racial slur, others who knew Cosell were quick to point out that he used this term routinely in an approving way to describe quicker, smaller players of all ethnicities.

Howard never really lived that one down.

dork @ 5/14/2008 5:59:12 PM

« RowanGrey : That is beyond silly. This illustrates my point beautifully. When have you ever heard of a white person getting upset because crackers were served at a luncheon?

I'm NOT SAYING that all black people feel/act this way. Not at all. I think there is a certain personality type (of ALL RACES) that wants to find offense. It makes them feel justified or something. It fills some need for them.

I agree with you. Its not right, but the fact that Racism is still touchy with people means that people should be careful with it. Just like you would be careful with open flames around nitrogen.

The message is negative. If racism wern't an issue and something else was, Im sure the T-shirt would be different and just as offensive. They just used a racist message because its easy and its powerful

dork @ 5/14/2008 5:54:21 PM

« RowanGrey : No one is saying the shirt was not intentionally offensive. We understand that. *My* beef is that the "deal" is exponentially bigger because the target of the insult is black (or of mixed race).

I'm with 2many, here. If the bar had printed up shirts with pictures of a cow with Rosie O'Donnell's name under it, this uproar wouldn't be NEARLY as loud. Think about it.

There isnt an uproar. The thing said 12 people protested the shirt and then Plime debates it calmly.

Plus Rosie doesnt have a good reputation and weight-ism hasnt caught the media's or the public's attention yet. Im not saying those arguements are right, its just how things are.

RowanGrey @ 5/14/2008 5:54:08 PM

« dork :...the nurses tried to decorate they clear baby box things with foam jungle animals and they randomly stuck the animals on to the boxes but the black parents got mad because the monkeys were racist. So some people still see the monkey as a strong racist symbol.

That is beyond silly. This illustrates my point beautifully. When have you ever heard of a white person getting upset because crackers were served at a luncheon?

I'm NOT SAYING that all black people feel/act this way. Not at all. I think there is a certain personality type (of ALL RACES) that wants to find offense. It makes them feel justified or something. It fills some need for them.

doggylives @ 5/14/2008 5:52:45 PM

« davbob :(I also live in Liverpool which was the slavery export capital of the world for a long time therefor am very well versed in the history of racism and slavery thank you very much DL)

Oh sorry, I never realized you lived in Liverpool, you must be very well versed in the history of slavery if you live in Liverpool.

I've got a few friends from Liverpool and they've shown me their diploma's in Slavery History that Liverpool council hands out to it's residents.

RowanGrey @ 5/14/2008 5:50:42 PM

No one is saying the shirt was not intentionally offensive. We understand that. *My* beef is that the "deal" is exponentially bigger because the target of the insult is black (or of mixed race).

I'm with 2many, here. If the bar had printed up shirts with pictures of a cow with Rosie O'Donnell's name under it, this uproar wouldn't be NEARLY as loud. Think about it.

dork @ 5/14/2008 5:46:27 PM

Whether or not you see the shirt as racist, I'm sure you can tell its meant to be racist because,

The bar has caused controversy in the past with its billboard messages.

The monkey wasn't an accident. I don't think they are poking fun of his intelligence or his big ears, they put the monkey on there because they know what it symbolizes. They picked the monkey because they wanted attention and they wanted controversy, and they have done it before. I am a white 17 year old kid and saw the problem with the shirt immediately.

My mom works at an Intensive Care Unit for infants in Philadelphia, and the nurses tried to decorate they clear baby box things with foam jungle animals and they randomly stuck the animals on to the boxes but the black parents got mad because the monkeys were racist. So some people still see the monkey as a strong racist symbol.

davbob @ 5/14/2008 5:41:09 PM

« jLoSsDh : Bush has EARNED his reputation for acting like a primate.

Funny you should say that but isn't Bush the president of a democratic country? Like a country where people actually choose who to vote for?

Enough about Bush, the shirt of Obama supposedly portrayed as a monkey has had to be explained to me and several others I know as to why it would cause controversy. Not one person I have spoken to about it saw the connection of him being Black to the picture of a monkey.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist because I know from first hand experience that it does (I also live in Liverpool which was the slavery export capital of the world for a long time therefor am very well versed in the history of racism and slavery thank you very much DL),what I am saying is that the word racist is thrown about far too easily nowadays, Rhys Jones was a schoolboy who was shot not 15 miles from here,Jimmy Mizen was murdered the day after his 16th birthday while out shopping with his brother. These were horrific crimes which, had they happened to a member of an ethinic community would have been classed as racially motivated.

I remember being a schoolboy getting into a fight, it's what schoolkids did back then. I got into a fight with a kid who was chinese, I was suspended for being racist. I didn't fight him because he was chinese I fought him because he was a prick.

I'm done arguing, some people will automatically say black if I say white so why bother?

OOps can't say that can I it's being racist.

CheZ @ 5/14/2008 5:33:56 PM

While I understand where 2many is coming from (he does have a valid point.) This is a case of blatant racism. This isn't a regular joe blow who thought it'd be a good idea to compare a candidate to an animal. This is a man who has on previous occasions set out to cause a stir. He likened a black candidate to a monkey. His intent is quite obvious here.
That being said, i agree with Alton; do not feed the trolls.

SkandarGraun @ 5/14/2008 5:33:18 PM

They should have picked Dobby. Putyn did not get offended, so probably Obama supporters would not get offended either. What a pity Obama does not look like Dobby, just because of this issue I really wish he didn't look like Curious George either.

jLoSsDh @ 5/14/2008 5:08:59 PM

If portraying Obama as curious george is wrong than portraying Bush is equally wrong. Bush has been portrayed as far far worse.

Bush has EARNED his reputation for acting like a primate.

Mershaullk @ 5/14/2008 4:13:30 PM

The depiction of Bush as a monkey was based on his apparent intelligence. They aren't saying Bush is a monkey because all white people are monkeys. The people are saying Obama is a monkey because he's black, therefore making the statement that all black people are no better than monkeys and aren't fit to run the country.

The obvious difference between the two is that one is based on race and no actual observance other than that. The other is based on apparent intelligence.

Oh, and one is racist and the other isn't...

theclansman @ 5/14/2008 4:10:42 PM

« 2manyusernames
You on the other hand can take a flying f**k at a rolling donut. Calling me a racist again - is a rather sad example of a "civil conversation"

I think you should take another look at doggylives comments, he doesn't once call you racist OR make personal attacks. Really, I think you should think before you post because most of your comments are pure trash, try making an argument rather than resorting to insults.

Just my opinion, but I think Obama's speech on race is still the definitive answer to this argument. He sees both sides of the debate, whites who see black people getting favorable treatment and that causes resentment. Blacks that have experienced years of prejudice and stereotyping which causes resentment on their side. Is it wrong to depict Bush as a monkey? probably, is it worse to depict Obama as a monkey? well the difference is that depicting bush as a monkey is offensive to bush, whereas depicting Obama as a monkey is offensive to all blacks.

So yes, it is worse.

2manyusernames @ 5/14/2008 4:09:08 PM

« doggylives : First off I didn't call you racist I gave two options that I could see where the only reasons for defending this T-shirt.

Second, I DID NOT make an insulting remark to anyone when you edited my comment, I added a "That made me lmao" comment in response to another plimates comment. You edited out my comment and replaced it with your own so that it fitted in with your edit of the other plimates comment that you changed. Plus the comments you edited were about someone who was causing complete chaos in the chatrooms and threatened to kill other plimates. Do you really want that kind of person to stick around?

/thread jack

*editz* This was going to go in a pm but I'm damned if I'm going to let you twist things to try and make me look bad.

Everytime there's a story about racism 2many, you cry "race-card" in favour of whites. If ya have what ya think will be unpopular views on race just come out and say it. Maybe I've got this all wrong but to defend the use of a monkey to depict a black person makes you, IMO, either sympathetic towards racist views OR extremely naive to the history and the subject of racism.

that is calling me a racist. Also as I said, it isn't the first time that you've stooped to such a level.

yes, your comments weren't the bad one. Your's had to be edited because you quoted the one who made the rude comment and was laughing about it. I had to edit yours since the other was edited.

At the time of the comment and after the edit which I PM'd you both about, you did not know that the user was being a jerk in chat or making threats. Neither did the one who implied the user had an IQ of 59.

The insult was because he oddly talked about a 2-year Super Bowl like it happened last Sunday. It wasn't done for any other reason. Don't make yourself out like some hero here.

You brought up the editing not me so I didn't see the need for a long explanation of the event.

edit: You have always spoken as if you felt that racism against blacks is different than others and even that racism isn't possible against whites. Your excuse is always the same "history" that the history of blacks make them different. That the history of whites and the level of control they've had historically speaking means racism against them isn't the same.

doggylives @ 5/14/2008 4:01:21 PM

« 2manyusernames : This has nothing to do with a difference of opinion. I know we do.

I feel that all racism/bigotry is wrong. You feel that only racism against blacks is wrong.

I couldn't care less about a difference of opinion that I share with you.

Where were you abusive? When you called me racist yet again.

Yes, I downvoted BB when he was saying f**k you to everyone for doing what they were supposed to. For saying "f**k you" to me for upvoting his edit.

Yes, I edited your comments which personally insulted a new member because insulting someone on their first post is wrong and rude. He did not insult anyone. Insulting new members is hardly the thing to make them stick around.

I don't want them to be insulted because I want them to stay.

You on the other hand can take a flying f**k at a rolling donut. Calling me a racist again - is a rather sad example of a "civil conversation"

Your claim that you did not attack me personally is pure bulls**t.

Comment removed as not constructive to the thread or life itself. OP

2manyusernames @ 5/14/2008 3:53:35 PM

« doggylives : Wow, appears you don't like people having an opinion different to yours. Where exactly was I abusive to you eh?

Seems some of the older plimates on here have difficulty maintaining a civil conversation without getting so frustrated that they resort to "f**k you" comments and whiny abuse.

You've just devalued the points you were making by resorting to personal attacks. I was merely expressing the only reasons I could think of for defending this T-shirt not attacking you personally.

You downvoted BB for his outbursts and have even edited my comments when you thought they might reflect bad on the site and then you turn round with an abusive tirade in the middle of an intelligent, civil conversation?

This has nothing to do with a difference of opinion. I know we do.

I feel that all racism/bigotry is wrong. You feel that only racism against blacks is wrong.

I couldn't care less about a difference of opinion that I share with you.

Where were you abusive? When you called me racist yet again.

Yes, I downvoted BB when he was saying f**k you to everyone for doing what they were supposed to. For saying "f**k you" to me for upvoting his edit.

Yes, I edited your comments which personally insulted a new member because insulting someone on their first post is wrong and rude. He did not insult anyone. Insulting new members is hardly the thing to make them stick around.

[I also edited my comments, removing the "f**k you" from the time you quoted them and the time you posted your comment]

I don't want them to be insulted because I want them to stay.

You on the other hand can take a flying f**k at a rolling donut. Calling me a racist again - is a rather sad example of a "civil conversation"

Your claim that you did not attack me personally is pure bulls**t.

doggylives @ 5/14/2008 3:45:29 PM

« 2manyusernames : What the f**k do you mean? What exactly are you pathetically trying to say?

My views have always been non-racist completely.

I always feel that all should be treated equally.

Calling me racist is a f**king joke coming from you. Calling me naive or uneducated is even more laughable.

You have told us 14,451 times you have a mixed-race daughter. That's nice. Most people have daughters. You have to single her out. Whatever. If calling me a racist for wanting all to be treated equally makes you feel better well than you just go ahead and do my widdle boy.

History?
Okay so blacks have had a raw deal at one point in history. That doesn't give them a free card to act racist towards white, it doesn't give anyone a free card to "make up for wrongs done to others".

It certainly doesn't mean that blacks should be treated differently. It most certainly doesn't mean they get special treatment or are supposed to be handled with kid gloves.

If portraying Obama as curious george is wrong than portraying Bush is equally wrong. Bush has been portrayed as far far worse.

That is my f**king point. Portray a white man in a racist manner and all is fine. Portray a non-white and there is hell to pay. Expecting one to be treated differently than another solely because of their race is racist.

nevermind. I could go on. But you won't or can't understand.

You just go on telling yourself you're a special kind of man and the rest of us are not as cool or tolerant as you are.

You've implied that I was a racist before and I let it slack. No more.

So in the words of BornBad:

f**k YOU!

Comment removed as not constructive to the thread or life itself. OP

2manyusernames @ 5/14/2008 3:38:39 PM

« doggylives : I think it's BS. I know your favourite subject is "the race card" 2many, but seriously, you think it's ok to portray an Afro-American man as a monkey given the racist BS thats been spouted for years comparing black people to monkeys?!

The article in question in question has some more information, and I quote,

Everytime there's a story about racism 2many, you cry "race-card" in favour of whites. Maybe I've got this all wrong but to defend the use of a monkey to depict a black person makes you, IMO, either sympathetic towards racist views OR extremely naive to the history and the subject of racism.

*eitz* Check this site out The Jim crow museum, for an idea of why images like the one on this t-shirt are still so offensive to a lot of people.

What the f**k do you mean? What exactly are you pathetically trying to say?

My views have always been non-racist completely.

I always feel that all should be treated equally.

Calling me racist is a f**king joke coming from you. Calling me naive or uneducated is even more laughable.

History?
Okay so blacks have had a raw deal at one point in history. That doesn't give them a free card to act racist towards white, it doesn't give anyone a free card to "make up for wrongs done to others".

It certainly doesn't mean that blacks should be treated differently. It most certainly doesn't mean they get special treatment or are supposed to be handled with kid gloves.

If portraying Obama as curious george is wrong than portraying Bush is equally wrong. Bush has been portrayed as far far worse.

I would bet that if Hillary was portrayed as a witch there would be little notice. If Obama's wife was portrayed as a witch, there would be calls of racism and people would be fired.

My point - which you have constantly refused to understand - is racism is racism. Bigotry is bigotry. The history of one's race means nothing. It doesn't make racism any more or less wrong.

It is the same with gender as well. Jokes against women in movies/television etc are usually downplayed whereas jokes against men are fine and common place. All women institutions are fine - all male institutions are evil.

There have been very little prejudice against Norwegians in this country so I guess by your definition it is fine to be bigoted against them since they don't have a history of being victimized.

That is my f**king point. Portray a white man in a racist manner and all is fine. Portray a non-white and there is hell to pay. Expecting one to be treated differently than another [for better or worse] solely because of their race is racist.

nevermind. I could go on. But you won't or can't understand.

You just go on telling yourself you're a special kind of man and the rest of us are not as cool or tolerant as you are.

You've implied that I was a racist before and I let it slack. No more.

doggylives @ 5/14/2008 3:38:09 PM

Just done some Googling on the Bar owner who made and sells these T-shirts.

Here's couple of signs he's put on his billboard "No habla espanol — and never will" and "I.N.S. Agents eat free." This combined with the T-shirt he's hawking makes me think he's distinctly racist.

He's a typical racist who bleats on that he's not racist because most are too scared to come out and openly say it.

Alton @ 5/14/2008 3:27:54 PM

« Hypermdavis : racism is a big issue.

I agree, but it's not national news worthy. My point is this is just some a*****e, conservative bar owner that thought is was funny and would get a rise out of people by selling these T-shirts. Now that he's made national news, I'm sure he's not thinking something along the lines of being sorry for what he did. He's probably thinking I succeeded in pissing off thousands of liberals, and where he can get more of these shirts. Like minded idiots are probably thinking, "s**t, his bar is plastered all over the internet and national news. What can I do get this kind of free publicity."

Trolls, for the most part, should be ignored.

doggylives @ 5/14/2008 2:48:16 PM

« davbob : My mother is married to a Pakistani and I have a half sister and half brother who are both mixed race. I have had to deal with situations like that before. Try not to make assumptions about people doggy, you will almost always be wrong.

I stand by what I said. It's a picture of a monkey with a name next to it. Nothing is implied the only things wrong with it are what people choose to see.

I bought Maddison a t-shirt with a monkey on it last week. Should the shop be banned from selling them incase they offend? I also bought her one with a cow on it. Am I a bad parent for implying my daughter is a cow? Of course not, that would be stupid, as is this discussion.

Does the T-shirt you bought your kid with a monkey on it have the name of a black man underneath it? No? Then don't be so obtuse and frivolous, of course it's not racist!! I find it really hard to believe that you don't have the intelligence to define between this Obama T-shirt and a kids T-shirt with a random animal on it.

Do you think they randomly picked a monkey out of a hat to put on that Obama t-shirt, that it could just have easily have been a giraffe?!! C'mon.

As for jumping to conclusions, I couldn't give a flying fart if you were black yourself, I was making the point that anyone with personal experience of racism will tend to look a different way at things like this. If you don't see anything wrong with it, good for you, that's your opinion.

If you have personal/acedemic knowledge of racism and it's history I AM surprised you see nothing wrong with a picture of a monkey with no humorous context above the name of a black man.

hOOsker @ 5/14/2008 2:37:56 PM

« doggylives : ....my daughter story

Good for you dl...and you're right on everything you've said. (Can't believe I just said that)

...hard to believe how many ignorant, small minded mother f**kers that have been able to successfully reproduce.

davbob @ 5/14/2008 2:35:19 PM

« doggylives : It's easy to "read" racist intent into things like this if you have a knowledge of the subject of racism and history.

Take the cartoon that TT posted above your comment, the comparisons between Bush and a monkey are drawn due to his ineptitude and are linked to humour in the majority of cases.

Compare that with this

Where's the humour or satire in that t-shirt, it has a black man's name with a picture of a monkey above it. Even if it's just ignorance of the history of racism that's spawned this, does it make it any better?!

I've walked in my local town with my mixed-race daughter and got into a fight with a lad who shouted "Monkey-lover" at me and made monkey noises. Deal with s**t like that and you might not feel that people who read racist intent into this t-shirt are indeed reading too much into it.

My mother is married to a Pakistani and I have a half sister and half brother who are both mixed race. I have had to deal with situations like that before. Try not to make assumptions about people doggy, you will almost always be wrong.

I stand by what I said. It's a picture of a monkey with a name next to it. Nothing is implied the only things wrong with it are what people choose to see.

I bought Maddison a t-shirt with a monkey on it last week. Should the shop be banned from selling them incase they offend? I also bought her one with a cow on it. Am I a bad parent for implying my daughter is a cow? Of course not, that would be stupid, as is this discussion.

tigertony @ 5/14/2008 2:17:37 PM

« doggylives :
I've walked in my local town with my mixed-race daughter and got into a fight with a lad who shouted "Monkey-lover" at me and made monkey noises. Deal with s**t like that and you might not feel that people who read racist intent into this t-shirt are indeed reading too much into it.

It's easy to understand your passion on this subject. Let me expand my comment to say that such comments show a lack of respect whether they're directed at Bush, Obama, you and your daughter, or anybody else. I consider the source and move on.

Hypermdavis @ 5/14/2008 2:15:49 PM

Thank you doggylives. Being a mixed child I remember so many times being with my parents and dealing with peoples ingnorance. As much as I like to think I can move beyond it, it still hurts.

doggylives @ 5/14/2008 2:10:24 PM

« davbob : But ,but,but there are millions of pictures on the internet showing G.W as a monkey so why not Obama?

Too many people read too much into stuff.

It's easy to "read" racist intent into things like this if you have a knowledge of the subject of racism and history.

Take the cartoon that TT posted above your comment, the comparisons between Bush and a monkey are drawn due to his ineptitude and are linked to humour in the majority of cases.

Compare that with this

http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/6e82b9dd64_obama_05142008.jpg

Where's the humour or satire in that t-shirt, it has a black man's name with a picture of a monkey above it. Even if it's just ignorance of the history of racism that's spawned this, does it make it any better?!

I've walked in my local town with my mixed-race daughter and got into a fight with a lad who shouted "Monkey-lover" at me and made monkey noises. Deal with s**t like that and you might not feel that people who read racist intent into this t-shirt are indeed reading too much into it.

davbob @ 5/14/2008 1:59:24 PM

But ,but,but there are millions of pictures on the internet showing G.W as a monkey so why not Obama?

Too many people read too much into stuff.

tigertony @ 5/14/2008 1:59:00 PM

« 2manyusernames :
Compare George Bush to Curious George (and far worse) = funny, creative, witty, insightful genius and great political understanding.

Actually George Bush has been portrayed as Curious George on more than one occasion. He's made himself an easy target at times and the national media has been more tha willing to pile on. Free speach not withstanding, I think it shows a lack of respect regardless of who's in office.

This cartoon appeared in Maxim in Sept. 2000. It was just the first of many that came up in a Google search.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff303/tigertony1958/gw1.jpg