Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful Posted: 7 months ago by dollyllama
More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
Comments: 40 Score: [-] 401 [+].
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Posted: 7 months ago by Bornbad:
What?
Score: [-] 64 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by chinook:
But of course! The book says so:
Idjidibites 10:2 "And Jeebus saw them foreigners, and smote them since they might be tarrorists. And when them tarrorists didn't say nothin, he smote them till they said somethin. Then Sky Daddy looked down and said 'That's cool.'"
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Posted: 7 months ago by tgkprog:
well I'm one of those that does not go to a temple very often :(( but i believe in God and i do believe that some people deserved to be punished brutally
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Posted: 7 months ago by Bornbad:
I heard the "Pew Forum" really stinks.
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Posted: 7 months ago by cb__:
Since the sample size is pretty small and involved a fairly specific group of people, the results are neither scientific nor necessarily reflective of the larger religious community..to extrapolate as much is misleading.
I don't mean this personally at all, dolly, but how come you always and only hear about the negatives where spirituality is concerned? :/
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Posted: 7 months ago by jhordie:
I blasted my Dad for this one. He sent out one of those "joke" emails pretty much condoning torture as long as it was "us" doing it to "them". (he doesn't actually go to church a lot, he's just married to someone who's "religious", who actually doesn't go to church much anymore, probably because of my dad)
ANYWAY, I told him if we torture the "enemy" it is ultimately going to hurt our own soldiers. If the U.S. thinks it's acceptable to torture prisoners, then we won't have a leg to stand on by complaining or also trying to bring legal action against other countries that may capture our soldiers and then torture them.
We are truly putting our soldiers in danger of torture if they are ever captured.
Score: [-] 124 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by Interesting:
« chinook : But of course! The book says so:
Idjidibites 10:2 "And Jeebus saw them foreigners, and smote them since they might be tarrorists. And when them tarrorists didn't say nothin, he smote them till they said somethin. Then Sky Daddy looked down and said 'That's cool.'" All sacrilegious comments aside...(lightning strike in 3..2..1)...Actually the Old Testament does not show God telling His chosen people to "be nice" to their enemies. It is more a case of "wipe them out...all of them...women, children...kill them all". Of course there are good reason why He said this (according to most theologians) but I'm just saying...
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Posted: 7 months ago by blurmore:
I think this has to do with the punitive nature of religion. Religion is all about punishment, either self inflicted, or inflicted by God. The "righteous" always feel backed up if they have strong belief in a higher power IF Belief THEN righteous THEN whatever done in belief is ok by God.
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Posted: 7 months ago by dollyllama:
« cb__ : Since the sample size is pretty small and involved a fairly specific group of people, the results are neither scientific nor necessarily reflective of the larger religious community..to extrapolate as much is misleading.
I don't mean this personally at all, dolly, but how come you always and only hear about the negatives where spirituality is concerned? :/ I do?
Score: [-] 115 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by blurmore:
« Interesting : All sacrilegious comments aside...(lightning strike in 3..2..1)...Actually the Old Testament does not show God telling His chosen people to "be nice" to their enemies. It is more a case of "wipe them out...all of them...women, children...kill them all". Of course there are good reason why He said this (according to most theologians) but I'm just saying... And this is still the primary holy book of a whole nation. If I had a God, killing in his name would be the worst affront to him, and to his creation. Everyone else's God seems to be a petty guy with a beard, who gets pissed when people swear by him, flies off the handle when they utter the names of animals he doesn't want them to eat, and thinks people he made to love people of the same sex are abhorrent and shouldn't be allow to fulfill their love. Yeah as long as that is the shelf stable God product...I ain't buying.
Score: [-] 87 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by Nicky666:
I could understand these figures if the question was about using torture to get more information out of convicted terrorists (...still would say it is not justified, however, I would understand other opinions).
But we're talking about suspected terrorists, I really don't understand why the percentage of people who think it's justified can be this high, religious or not.
Score: [-] 48 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by cb__:
« Interesting : All sacrilegious comments aside...(lightning strike in 3..2..1)...Actually the Old Testament does not show God telling His chosen people to "be nice" to their enemies. It is more a case of "wipe them out...all of them...women, children...kill them all". Of course there are good reason why He said this (according to most theologians) but I'm just saying... I'd be interested in the exact reference, thanks in advance. I'm not sure why you left out..
'Do to others as you would have them do to you.'
'Love your enemies, do good to them.'
'Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.'
To each his own tho.
Score: [-] 71 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by hoosker:
« jhordie :
We are truly putting our soldiers in danger of torture if they are ever captured. Ummm...where have you been?
Score: [-] 89 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by arviragus:
« tgkprog:well I'm one of those that does not go to a temple very often :(( but i believe in God and i do believe that some people deserved to be punished brutally This isn't about punishment, or justice, this is about *torture*. Keep in mind they don't say terrorists, but "suspected terrorists". Any "punishment" should come after due process, and according to the standards to which you seem to hold so dear. A failure to do anything else simply make you a terrorist of a different sort, and cheapens any ideals you hold dear.
Further, there is an incredible amount of data that confirms that torture is a completely ineffective eway of obtaining accurate information. Most of the successes in the middle east didn't come from torture but from collaboration and trust.
Anyone who thinks torture is acceptable is a sadistic son of a b***h who is just as evil and deranged as any fundamentalist muslim terrorist.
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Posted: 7 months ago by tgkprog:
« Nicky666 : I could understand these figures if the question was about using torture to get more information out of convicted terrorists (...still would say it is not justified, however, I would understand other opinions).
But we're talking about suspected terrorists, I really don't understand why the percentage of people who think it's justified can be this high, religious or not. oh i was talking about convicted terrorists not suspected. just read the headline again
Score: [-] 41 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by Chamale:
« cb__ : I'd be interested in the exact reference, thanks in advance. I'm not sure why you left out..
'Do to others as you would have them do to you.'
'Love your enemies, do good to them.'
'Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.'
To each his own tho. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalm 137:9
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
19And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
20And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood. - Numbers 31
5And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
7And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
10And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
11And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me. - Ezekiel 9
15Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children. - Isaiah 13
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. - Deuteronomy 13:15
26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. - Exodus 32
10When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
11And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
14And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. - Deuteronomy 21
7And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
8And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. - Leviticus 26
Score: [-] 198 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by theclansman:
« arviragus
Anyone who thinks torture is acceptable is a sadistic son of a b***h who is just as evil and deranged as any fundamentalist muslim terrorist. I wish I could upvote this a thousand times, this torture s**t makes me want to f**king puke.
Score: [-] 90 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by 2manyusernames:
« arviragus : This isn't about punishment, or justice, this is about *torture*. Keep in mind they don't say terrorists, but "suspected terrorists". Any "punishment" should come after due process, and according to the standards to which you seem to hold so dear. A failure to do anything else simply make you a terrorist of a different sort, and cheapens any ideals you hold dear.
Further, there is an incredible amount of data that confirms that torture is a completely ineffective eway of obtaining accurate information. Most of the successes in the middle east didn't come from torture but from collaboration and trust.
Anyone who thinks torture is acceptable is a sadistic son of a b***h who is just as evil and deranged as any fundamentalist muslim terrorist. oh please. Studies show torture doesn't work!?? "Studies" can and do get you any result you want to get. More than 10,000 years of real life action has shown that it does work and works quite well. Sure it isn't the best tool to obtain all kinds of intel but that doesn't mean that it isn't effective period. Sure you will get false intel but interrogators are trained to get through such obstacles. Yes, you won't be able to separate all the false intel from the real but you can get a lot.
The other problem is the definition of "torture". Many will have anything that merely embarrasses or humiliates the suspect labeled "torture". Some will say that cutting off a man's balls with a butter knife is the same as giving him a lap dance, rubbing fake menstrual blood on him, or laughing at his naked body.
Tell me what methods would you find acceptable when "pretty please" doesn't work?
Tell me who is more barbaric, the one who obtains the information to save a school full of children or the one who would rather the children all die instead of making someone who we know has the intel needed to prevent it uncomfortable, embarrassed, or yes, even suffer some pain?
Could you really sleep well knowing that you allowed and even advocated for your child, your spouse to die horribly instead of causing a bit of suffering to the one who set them up to die.
If you don't care if your child or spouse died, or even yourself, how many deaths would you find unacceptable enough to allow interrogation that goes beyond begging the person to tell or bribing the person to tell the information needed?
Obviously torture is not a tool for every problem. It is not a tool that will help in most situations, however to make a blanket statement that it never works and is never justified - especially with such a loose definition of the word, is naive or hypocritical unless one really feel that it is better for 1, dozens, hundreds, thousands, or more to die than for one person to suffer pain or even a bit of psychological messing with.
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Posted: 7 months ago by theclansman:
« 2manyusernames stupidity Wow, I would have hoped for better from you. Give me one case where torture has been used to prevent a "school full of children" from dying. Oh wait, you can't because THAT SHIT ONLY HAPPENS ON TV.
Turn off 24 and wake up to reality.
Score: [-] 85 [+].
Posted: 7 months ago by 2manyusernames:
« theclansman:Wow, I would have hoped for better from you. Give me one case where torture has been used to prevent a "school full of children" from dying. Oh wait, you can't because THAT SHIT ONLY HAPPENS ON TV.
Turn off 24 and wake up to reality. It is a hypothetical situation. It could happen. It has happened. None of know how many killings have been avoided over the centuries by information extracted in ways that are beyond asking nicely. Killings which very well could have happened at a school. Are you really saying that a school has never been attacked? Never been bombed, never been blown up, never been incinerated while kids were in it? Hell a school was blown up just a few hours ago:
no deaths due to school being closed, but there could have been.
Still it is just a hypothetical situation. If you don't like that one(because you can't answer it without sounding hypocritical that torture is never justified), use any that you wish. Torture - how ever you want to define it can and has saved people's lives.
How many people have to die before you feel that even just embarrassing a prisoner is justified?
and remember I am not saying that torture or interrogation techniques should be used always in whatever way one feels like doing. I am not even saying it is often justified. I am merely saying that you can not say it is never justified.
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