Sweet.

I am so proud of the US for giving back their tribal lands so that they can maintain their heritage and ways.

For centuries (before the white man came and killed the red man) Indians would gamble in casinos, perform gay weddings, take money from other nations and pass that money onto their own children and this is just another example of the Indians going back to their heritage.

/sarcasm.

Trying to grasp the angle from which the sarcasm comes from. Unless you are an Indian I wonder if one can grasp, even remotely, what has been lost by these people over the years. I am, and for forty years I have tried to come to terms with it. I will say that the issue of casinos and the commercial use of reservation lands is a complicated issue, one which I have conflicting thoughts about. I was adopted off the rez in 1971 and was given the benefit of a fantasic education and have gone on to work a long and productive career in American society but that hasn't blinded me to what my relatives endured and still do. So I wonder, is it sarcasm or judgement, or a glib comment not well constructed which may have real meaning and a well thought out argument behind it? In any case as to the article itself I have been around long enough and am brave enough to say this much. I have been in the world a long time and been around it several times. Life is wonderful but it is also hard, painfull and full of stife. I speak for myself but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if two people find Love and real happiness who am I, who am I, to to tell them no, its not real? To that end I believe that any attempt to legislate against same sex marriages is strictly an attempt by those against it to legislate thier belief or values or thier emotions on otheres.

First of all, just to be clear, I have nothing against Same Sex Marriage. Will I do it myself? Never. But that shouldn't stop someone else from doing it.

I have nothing against the indian heritage, or allowing them a piece of the native land to preserve their heritage and live in peace.

It's odd. I can't really come up with any other examples of a conqueror who 'set aside land' and 'gave back to the natives' what they had conquered. We weren't right, we were simply more advanced. What they have turned around and done with it is appalling though.

An AMERICAN citizen can't make a casino in the states they do. BUT! An Oppressed tribesman can. And yes, I have been in them. It almost broke my heart to see this beautiful woven rug sitting behind the bar in a room that was smokey and reeked of alcohol. But it's their land and their choice on how they want to preserve their 'heritage'

The Indian legacy is not going to be the proud people on horseback (which btw, were brought by the Spanish.) It isn't going to be tents and languages, songs and culture. It's going to be those casinos and welfare!

It would be a Million times better if tribes didn't 'give free money' to their tribespeople, but instead gave them free education/tuition, lower cost housing, built museums and supported research. Taught their languages to their children.

In the end, I DO have a problem with hippocrites. People who say they want to preserve their heritage, by building a casino. People who want to maintain their tribal customs, and allow gay marriage. And people who want to be a soverign nation, and wire that nation into another nation for water/power/natural gas.

Beads for land? It was the Americans who lost on the deal.

I would only ask and not to drag this out, but what research have you really done? I am not by any means saying that the casino deal is right in my book (myriad reasons) but as for the lot of your other arguments I can tell that you haven't done any real research. The origin and intent of the system of reservations for example or the constuction of infrastructre on reservation, which I pretty much knew you were going to ping on if you responded were the glaringly obvious ones. As far as being more advanced, you may want to rethink that after you do some home work about the history between the US Goverment and the Indians or the fact that what you may today consider to be ancient history exists to this very day. Who lost on the deal really, we all did. Lets have an honest conversation though with some real data if we are gonna snipe on this one.

I have to wonder if you even read all of the article. About 1/3 of the way down is this paragraph:

Gay/lesbian relationships aren't something created in modern days. To me it seems that by NOT allowing same-sex marriages in other tribes, people are giving up their heritage to the conquerors.

Hi native. You make some great points. Please break up your paragraphs so my eyes don't try to murder me when I attempt to read your comments. Just hit enter/return twice.

I'm not a native of the land, but I've read up on my history (not school textbooks, by the way) and your people really got shafted by the white man. But then, who hasn't? Don't get me wrong; you guys got it worst than almost every race that my barbaric ancestors encountered. The only race that I can think of that had it worse were the blacks, at least you guys got a few squares of land. Either way you look at it though, my people were arrogant, self-righteous, condescending d**ks.

And Tragluck, indian gambling has been around for centuries; the casino idea was adopted by them so that they could actually raise money. The land that they were given was the least inhabitable land on the continent; not good for farming of any type. And if we were to give them back their land, we'd have to move the f**k off the continent because it is all thier land (from our point of view; from thier point of view no one can own land).

Many of these people are on welfare and addicted to alcohol because we put them there. We didn't give them land that would allow them to be interdependant; we gave them the s**t that no one else wanted. We gave them a place to die. Believe it or not, that's pretty f**king depressing. But these resilient people have survived, and more than that; they've found a way that they can earn some money and poissibly florish.

They can't preserve their heritage if they are all left to starve and die off. They need money because we forced them into a world that required currency and f**ked them over so hard that they have no choice but to adapt.

So before you go galloping around on the back of your high horse, criticizing people because of their lifestyles; take a look at why they have their lifestyles. (and draft already covered the gay thing)

First of all, It's Tragluk, I don't call you "Donteatploop".

From their point of view, nobody owned the land. They all shared the land. For the eastern indians, the Spanish, the English, the Porgugese, even the Vikings came over and raided.. pillaged.. burned.. destroyed and assimilated them. In the case of the western Natives the Americans who were living in the eastern US came into their territories and did pretty much the same thing.

We gave them land to live on, not the best land, heck a great deal of it was pretty much just the stuff that we didn't want. I don't argue how much of a crapping we took on them. The wonderful thing about America though is it's melting pot of cultures. The Italians live with us and maintain their heritage, the African-americans are here with us, the German-american communities do quite well in Pennsylvainia. Everyone else lives under the same laws, pays the same taxes, and has worked hard to maintain their heritage and create a new one.

And the only place I mentioned alcohol is when I said there was a bar in the casino where a 'traditional indian rug' hung. You are the one who mentioned...

Bull.

There are many people who begun on welfare who have gotten off it. There are stories of single mothers who got educated, of alcoholics who went to AA, in most cases someone can work towards a better future. In a rare few, the problem goes beyond what is possible for the person to overcome. I don't think that every Native american is 'drinking and on welfare' but I do note that there is a perception that they are.

Do you think that any other nation would have 'respected their soverignty' and simply walked around them? No, any other conquering nation would have simply said "Join or die." In teh end, we have protected them, we have allowed them their own laws, we have paid them, and we have granted them lands which we protect.

America has laws. Oregon outlaws same sex marriage but they are Native so they don't have to follow the American laws. They can make up any laws they wish to have and force those laws on us.

As to the same-sex marriage, this story is showing that although you can't have a same-sex marriage in Oregon, you can get around the law by doing it on the reservation and NOW the US has to recognize it.

The issue with casinos is although the state doesn't allow gambling, you can go to a reservation and NOW it's legal, because you're not in the United States any longer.

They need money because the world evolved. The simple fact is those people who do not, or will not, change with the times are Darwins exhibit number 1. They choose not to incorporate themselves into the rest of America because it's profitable to them to stay the way they are. Benefits without cost.

Not every tribe felt the same way about unions. Some tribes had no problem with it as long as it didn't hurt the rest of the tribe, others were not as understanding. This particular tribe in Oregon may have had a footnote in their history of Brave-Joseph and Brave-Joseph living together but that's not to say there wasn't prejudice, or objections, or even exile in other tribes.

If they wanted to have same-sex unions which were recognized by their tribe and only their tribe there wouldn't be a discussion. It would be a non-issue. The problem is they are forcing the US to recognize their laws which are contrary to our own.

And if the tribe has a history of murdering an opposing tribesman, or marriage by kidnapping.. well, I guess it's their heritage so that's ok too right?

...

Ok.. off my soapbox. Perhaps a little insight in to why this matters to me.

In Alaska the Aleutians have tribes as well. We are STILL granting them land which they say has been 'traditionally important' to their heritage. A few years back a hut was discovered on a federal reserve which began lawsuits to 'get the land back.'

A year after the 'tribe' had secured the land they sold the logging rights. I watched a parcel of land which was beautiful, green, and protected get bulldozed by a logging company. Land which had been protected was now unprotected, demolished, and is now the site of a nice housing community. The few trees that are left were dying when I last saw them, their roots which had been spread out beyond the 'parcels' that they were divided into had been destroyed.

It has shaped my viewpoint of 'Indian heritage' since. I have a very negative view on the US giving away the land of our nation to another nation. And I don't like anyone, Indian tribe or not, forcing their traditions and laws on us.

If you want to be an American, JOIN US. If you don't, we should treat you the same as we treat any other foreign nation. Gentlemen get our your passports, were heading to the casino.

In making this argument you start out with some ideas and come to conclusions. Again I would only point out that from your conclusions you don't have solid research to support your arguments. I'm not doing you home work for you in that arena.

What I will say is that your opinion is yours, based on your understanding and emotion and your perception of the story and I can respect that it is genuinely how you feel. There are many things that Indians do that make me frustrated with a giant "why haven't we learned anything?"

I think it odd though that near the end of your argument you say "And I don't like anyone, Indian tribe or not, forcing their traditions and laws on us." I think of Americas current predicament with foreign relations and I have to face palm. I think of the history that I know America has with the different races and sigh.

P.S I found my space bar and return key, they were hiding in the back of my desk eating my stash of caramel chocolates :(

lol. woops. Sorry about that.
But we're the foreigners. We are asking them to abandon their traditions to assimilate into a world that was forced upon them. Had we given them land in which they were able to be self sufficient, they wouldn't be in the predicament they are in. As to them assimilating; they are/have; look how much cash they're making from these casinos. All they have to do is abandon traditional values and the money is theirs.

In one breath your calling their plight BS and saying that they need to assimilate, and in the next you're saying that the way they are assimilating is BS. Make up your mind.

Actually it's not that big a deal. Just wanted to correct up front. :)

Is it really separate concepts? I do think they need to assimilate, and I am not happy about the way they have done it. I don't think the plight of their ancestors was BS, but I think the way that their descendants have cashed in on it is.

Want to run a business? Pay the taxes the rest of us do. Want to be a part of America? Obey the laws, and change the ones you don't like. Work in the republic we have and cast your votes. None of this "Well, I'm over here so now I have my laws because 100 years ago your great great great grandfather tried to kill my great great great grandfather."

Over the past couple of days I have begun researching Native history. I've read articles testifying to the 'same sex marriages' of some of the Native cultures. I've read stories of the land-grab and systematic genocide of the Natives. I have no doubt that we made a terrible ugly mistake in the way we treated them. But just because my father wronged your father, doesn't make it right for you to hold it over me.

I am not against the Native cultures. If anything, I think that the true destroyer of a culture could be putting that entire race on welfare. No Native brave ever grew up having his life handed to him and learned entitlement as part of the Native culture. Never once did I read of any Native welfare programs (except for the caring of their elderly/sick). And yes, they had gambling, but not until we brought them OUR casinos did they ever have anything like that in their heritage.

There are huge problems with the way that both sides are treating the situation. And perhaps I was a little shallow in my glossing over the situation in my first post. In fact, I've downvoted it myself. :P

I think the issue here is separate is not equal. You are either together, or you aren't fair. Isn't that what our ancestors taught us?

Right back on topic... We don't allow separatist sects to allow polygamy. We don't allow anyone to 'make up their own laws' in their own homes. We maintain equality.. as best we can.. and we need to be just as equal with the Natives as we are with everyone else. Be it a casino, or a marriage law, or anything else.

No, I'm not. I was born in America. I am a Native to this land. And if the argument is one of 'your first ancestor wasn't born here' then you might as well kick the Native americans off as well. They came here from somewhere else just as everyone else did. They were simply here first.

...or they conquered the ones who were here when they got here.

Thinking a lot about how Daftgretel's article starts this conversation. So much involved here and I am sad that after all this time we haven't solved these issues and as a race, not our sexual orientation or ancestry but human race, grown up. It is of course good to be talking about instead of shooting about it though, something to be said about that.