Comments: 11 Score: [-] 258 [+].
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Posted: 3 months ago by JoshSF49:
I say we do what guys who can't afford condoms do.
Just pull out.
Score: [-] 51 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by ImNotBlue:
scenarios. President Bush's and Sen. John McCain's forecasts of regional catastrophe are quite reminiscent of the predictions of "falling dominoes" that were used to justify continued U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Neither has provided any real evidence that ending the war would mean disaster, but their fear-mongering makes prolonging it easier.
False!
From Wiki:
Upon taking control, the Vietnamese communists banned all other political parties, arrested public servants and military personnel of the Republic of Vietnam and sent them to reeducation camps. The government also embarked on a mass campaign of collectivization of farms and factories. Reconstruction of the war-ravaged country was slow, and serious humanitarian and economic problems confronted the communist regime. Millions of people fled the country in crudely-built boats, creating an international humanitarian crisis. In 1978, the Vietnamese army invaded Cambodia (sparking the Cambodian-Vietnamese War) to remove the Khmer Rouge from power. This action worsened relations with China, which launched a brief incursion into northern Vietnam (the Sino-Vietnamese War) in 1979. This conflict caused Vietnam to rely even more heavily on Soviet economic and military aid.
So after the pull out in Vietnam... exactly what is currently being prediction for Iraq, took place. Mass murders, genocide, and mass exodus away. I just don't understand why people either ignore or refuse to remember history.
But this author does recognize that the US will still have the a presence in Iraq (which is what John McCain was saying in the "100 years" quote... a quote that is routinely taken out of context):
Terminating U.S. combat operations will take more than a military decision. It will require arrangements with Iraqi leaders for a continued, residual U.S. capacity to provide emergency assistance in the event of an external threat (e.g., from Iran); it will also mean finding ways to provide continued U.S. support for the Iraqi armed forces as they cope with the remnants of al-Qaeda in Iraq.
So they US will leave... but stay.
This guys ideas are all over the place... and (like a true Jimmy Carter era politician), he believes that all the worlds problems will be solved by talking with everyone. Sadly, if he considered historical example, he'd realize that THAT is an idea history simply doesn't agree with.
Score: [-] 40 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by DerAlt:
Wow, and we didn't even bash Bush here.
I think we should take all the BS, chuck it out the window, get the hell out of Iraq and let them clean up a mess that Bush started but they won't help clean up.
All those Iraq internal problems are the things that Hussain was dealing with/controlling before we invaded. We leave...things go back to normal.
Didn't we get rid of their muderous dictator for them?
Their answer....suicide bombings, something like 400 of them. It's a tribal society and will always be, it's time to pass on the burden.
I don't give a crap about Iraq. Really support the troops, 4 years is enough, get our guys home now, period.
Score: [-] 58 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by JoshSF49:
« DerAlt : Wow, and we didn't even bash Bush here.
I think we should take all the BS, chuck it out the window, get the hell out of Iraq and let them clean up a mess that Bush started but they won't help clean up.
I don't give a crap about Iraq. Really support the troops, get our guys home now, period. I completely agree.
I frankly don't care if Iraq crumbles to pieces and Iran goes and takes over.
What we need to do is focus on not pissing people off, and the way to do that is to remove our presence from the middle east specifically, and preferable from the entire world.
The best way to support our troops is to bring them home.
Score: [-] 48 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by JoshSF49:
« ImNotBlue :
But this author does recognize that the US will still have the a presence in Iraq (which is what John McCain was saying in the "100 years" quote... a quote that is routinely taken out of context) Yes, his quote is taken out of context. I disagree with his quote in context, though it does upset me a little bit when people says he's advocating a hundred years war. He's not, he actually wants to leave as soon as possible, but not before the job is done. Presence, however, he likens to Korea and Germany, both which I disagree with.
Score: [-] 15 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by larknet:
What we need to do is focus on not pissing people off, and the way to do that is to remove our presence from the middle east specifically, and preferable from the entire world.
And if we do remove our presence from the "entire world", they will get pissed off because we are no longer helping anyone. No matter what the US does it is a no-win situation (not just in Iraq). If we try to help we get told that we shouldn't, if we don't they say we should. We are a world power. We should provide assistance when appropriate, but not get involved in every little skirmish. It is like two little brothers fighting. Let them duke it out until they get tired and go home. As the big brother, we watch and if someone REALLY gets hurt we step in, otherwise we watch and shake our heads.
Score: [-] 61 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by ImNotBlue:
« JoshSF49 : I completely agree.
I frankly don't care if Iraq crumbles to pieces and Iran goes and takes over.
What we need to do is focus on not pissing people off, and the way to do that is to remove our presence from the middle east specifically, and preferable from the entire world.
The best way to support our troops is to bring them home. And I understand that point of view... I really do. Part of me says, "It's not our problem, let's do stuff here, and FU to everyone else."
But unfortunately, we can't play like that.
If Iraq crumbles, and the whole Middle East falls apart... what happens next? Do they stay content with that... or do they start looking for more? History says dictatorships always look for another "meal," and before long we'll have another international crisis on our hands. What do we do then? Do we wait, and watch as the new Middle East grows to take over parts of Asia, Europe, and Africa? And what happens when they come knocking on our door? Do we fight back then? And will it be too late?
The problem with isolationism is that by nature it breeds resentment amongst everyone else. Imagine the US to be that one house in the neighborhood that isn't your 'average' home... it's the mansion on the hill. They have the nice stuff, the fancy cars, the pools, the statues (I have one of these homes around the corner from my house). What do the struggling people think, when they see the kids out driving BMW's... while their family is doing what it can to get by? It breeds resentment, and before long you're not longer "isolationist"... you're an outcast. You're getting hassled, people are trying to take what you have, and now the problems you were attempting to avoid, are confronting you... and there's not much you can do to stop it.
We started this mess in Iraq... and while that in and of itself is debatable... it's too late, we're already there, we gotta work on the "now." If we leave it a mess, it will only get worse... and in a few years, we'll be back where we started... only this time, it will be even harder. If we stay, we can hopefully continue to influence positive change. And right now (IMO), that's the best option we've got.
Score: [-] 0 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by TheShirtPocket:
Anyone see Lions For Lambs (is that the name)? I don't really agree with everything that film asserts...but I think it does give at least a different spin on things, and encourages thinking.
Score: [-] 0 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by ImNotBlue:
« DerAlt : Wow, and we didn't even bash Bush here. It strikes me as interesting that you figure me a hardcore Bush guy. I'm not... there's a lot we disagree on. But I don't hate the man. That's what makes me different than a lot of people.
I've said this before. I'm starting to think you're not reading what I write.
I think we should take all the BS, chuck it out the window, get the hell out of Iraq and let them clean up a mess that Bush started but they won't help clean up.
All those Iraq internal problems are the things that Hussain was dealing with/controlling before we invaded. We leave...things go back to normal.
How will things "go back to normal?" They lived in fear of a cruel dictator who would rape and murder his own people at will. Is that "normal?"
And what about Iran? What about the various groups that would like to control the people in Iraq... and exterminate them if need be? Is that a "normal" we want to be involved with?
Didn't we get rid of their muderous dictator for them?
Their answer....suicide bombings, something like 400 of them. It's a tribal society and will always be, it's time to pass on the burden.
Yes, we did. And many of them are thankful. However, there are many other people who are attempting to take control of the region, and will do so by any means necessary. Some of Saddam's old supporters want their power back. Some people want to keep Iraq's people fearful, so they can later invade and take control of Iraq's resources.
And since when do we leave or stop doing something just because it's "hard?" What if after D-Day we decided it was, "just too much" and we'd "pass the burden" onto someone else. Where would we be now?
Democracy and major change doesn't happen over night... it takes a while, but is worth fighting for.
I don't give a crap about Iraq. Really support the troops, 4 years is enough, get our guys home now, period.
As I said in my other response... isolationism only breeds more trouble, more hatred, and more danger for the future. What do we do then?
You may not care, but there are a lot of people who still do. There are a lot of people who are willing to put their lives on the line to go to Iraq, to help those people, and to defend America from those who would like to do us harm. If we had a draft, things might be different... but as long as we have an all volunteer army, and people willing to make the sacrifice, I feel we can continue to try to make this thing right.
Score: [-] 0 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by DerAlt:
« ImNotBlue:It strikes me as interesting that you figure me a hardcore Bush guy. I'm not... there's a lot we disagree on. But I don't hate the man. That's what makes me different than a lot of people.
If you're not a hard core Bush guy then you must have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night because you sure resemble one. I don't hate Bush, I hate the terrible things he's caused this country to suffer.
This is the 5th anniversary of the "Mission Accomplished" fiasco. Five years after the serious fighting stopped and we are still in a mess with no obvious finish. The five years are measured in failed attempts in every catagory from rebuilding infrastructure, training Iraqi's security forces, stabilizing the government, corruption and worse among the contractors and it goes on from there.
This ill-conceived, inadequately controlled massively inept war was started in the wrong country to begin with.
There are some truths that are self evident...particularly about this war. We've been fed all the BS...first it was weapons of mass distruction, then it was to save the Iraqi's and remove Sadaam, then it was about Democracy and freedom then is was bla, bla bla...
Wasn't it all supposed to be about getting Osama Bin Laden? What happened to him? He's still running loose and seems to be a total after thought. When was the last time Bush even mentioned him?
The war is a joke and spending more money and lives in Iraq is patently stupid.
It seems I never see an answer to the question that more and more people are asking. It's a pretty simple question that all the proponents of the war avoid:
HOW WILL WE KNOW WHEN WE"VE WON?
If we are in a war where victory cannot be defined than what the hell are we doing there? At least on D Day we knew what we were fighting for and what victory was.
Heh, leaving Iraq would hardly make the US isolationist, just check where we have armed forces around the world.
Score: [-] 42 [+].
Posted: 3 months ago by JoshSF49:
« DerAlt : If you're not a hard core Bush guy then you must have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night because you sure resemble one. I don't hate Bush, I hate the terrible things he's caused this country to suffer. I think that ImNotBlue is in a similar situation to me where we don't like a lot (or in my case the majority) of what Bush has done, but we get frustrated when everyone blames everything that goes wrong on him.
Yes, the war is his fault, but the economy is not. PATRIOT Act is his fault (sorta), but being in debt is not (well..to clarify I mean that we were in debt before he took office).
This is the 5th anniversary of the "Mission Accomplished" fiasco. Five years after the serious fighting stopped and we are still in a mess with no obvious finish. The five years are measured in failed attempts in every catagory from rebuilding infrastructure, training Iraqi's security forces, stabilizing the government, corruption and worse among the contractors and it goes on from there.
This ill-conceived, inadequately controlled massively inept war was started in the wrong country to begin with.
Yes, but at least 75% of the country supported the war to begin with. And now they've changed their opinion. I find more comfort in those who have been against it from the start, and more in those who who didn't support it for the right reason.
I don't like Obama's opinion on the war (but I do like his consistency), because the only reason he didn't like it was because it was "immoral." Who decides the morality of a war? Seriously. When people say they're against the war in Iraq, but would consider bombing Iran or Pakistan, I lose all respect for them. That includes McCain, Hillary, AND Obama.
There are some truths that are self evident...particularly about this war. We've been fed all the BS...first it was weapons of mass distruction, then it was to save the Iraqi's and remove Sadaam, then it was about Democracy and freedom then is was bla, bla bla...
Yeah, surprising how many people kept falling for the new reason.
Wasn't it all supposed to be getting Osama Bin Laden? What happened to him? He's still running loose and seems to be a total after thought. When was the last time Bush even mentioned him?
I'm pretty sure OBL didn't have anything to do with 9/11. I have my own conspiracy theory about that, though. But either way, Afghanistan was the "hunt for Osama." Now it's Pakistan..
The war is a joke and spending more money and lives in Iraq is patently stupid.
It seems I never see an answer to the question that more and more people are asking. It's a pretty simple question that all the proponents of the war avoid:
HOW WILL WE KNOW WHEN WE"VE WON?
If we are in a war where victory cannot be defined than what the hell are we doing there? At least on D Day we knew whaat we were fighting for and what victory was.
We "win" when violence stops and the state has a government. But, if we don't force them to do any of that we're never going to "win." I feel we've already lost, and our day of "loss" was March 2003.
Heh, leaving Iraq would hardly make the US isolationist, just check where we have armed forces around the world.
It's hypocritical to leave Iraq but not the other countries. It's none of our business what they do.
Score: [-] 0 [+].
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